Poll: Thoughts on Culinaria (Downtown Schnucks grocery)
Culinaria, the downtown Schnucks grocery store, opened 4 years ago today. Schnucks management originally had very low expectations, but the location has consistently done a very good volume of business, according to managers anyway.
During the last 4 years the store has changed very little, except for trying to squeeze more product by adding displays here and there. They just completed the first major revamp of the store, closing an aisle to add more shelving.
Over the last four years the store has been inproving the foods offered since opening day. I recall early on the only flour they had was bleached white flour, I had to visit Straub’s to get decent flour for something I wanted to bake. After I complained they added unbleached & wheat flour from Gold Medal, but now they also have several varieties of flour from King Arthur. Just took too long for a store with the tag line “bring out the foodie in you” to get ingredients this foodie uses.
I don’t know about you but I don’t look for produce & gourmet cheese at Best Buy, nor do I buy televisions at the grocery store. Culinaria has also sold charcoal, mini grills, & lighter fluid — likely aimed at downtown residents. The thing is, we can’t use charcoal grills! We can use propane grills, but no charcoal.
Eventually I think they’ll figure out how to sell groceries in a compact downtown setting, maybe in another 4 years. Anyway, the poll this week wants to know how you feel about the store. The poll is in the right sidebar, mobile users need to select the desktop layout.
— Steve Patterson
Criticize Culinaria, but Schnucks is the only grocer in town to open a major new downtown store in what, fifty years? Longer? And where else downtown can you buy a TV these days? Anywhere? Loft dwellers need TVs, and if they see a good deal at Culinaria, they’ll buy it. Looks like a case of the merchant finding a need/opportunity, and filling it. Hopefully when this poll is closed, Culinaria is shown to be a much welcomed addition to the downtown area that it is.
Schnucks development arm, DESCO, razed the Century Building then couldn’t lease the retail space in the state-owned garage they built. To save face they opened a store.
True, still that store was needed there and was a welcome addition to downtown. Though I still would rather have the Century Building back.
Compared to no downtown grocer?
All supermarkets are local. We all shop at the ones nearest to where we live for most of our staples. None will have every obscure item we might want or need, but most try hard to meet their customers’ needs. Culinaria fills a need, much like how a Trader Joe’s would. I’m glad it works for downtown residents, but since I ain’t one, I don’t visit very often . . . http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/07/why-walmart-still-hasnt-crushed-regional-grocery-store/6156/
Well, to be fair and balanced, when it comes to Schnucks, the corporate citizen, as much as their Culinaria location is a benefit to the community it serves, the Grand and Gravois store is a disgrace. That location, serving a much larger population than the downtown store, is shabby, with date-gone-by foods, messy appearance, and a general dump.
And, if memory serves, the Grand and Gravois store was opened with city assistance, as was Culinaria. It involved the demolition of far more historic buildings than the Culinaria ever did. By contrast, the Culinaria development is a piker when it comes to urban demolitions versus the Grand and Gravois location. (Oddly though, there was nary a peep about all those demolitions…)
Companies shouldn’t be judged by how their high-flying, hipster friendly operations run, but how they serve the general public in more modest situations. The Grand and Gravois store could be called the Pay Day Loan branch of Schnucks.
Agree, supermarkets tend to reflect their neighborhoods. Grand and Gravois may be marginal, but at least Schnuck’s is there. Dierberg’s is MIA, as is Shop and Save, Trader Joe’s and Straub’s. Aldi’s is down the road on Gravois, and Save-a-Lot isn’t too far away, as well. At the Grand and Gravois Schnuck’s, how many steaks walk out the door without being paid for? Baby formula? And how much merchandise continues to sell IN SPITE of the store being “shabby, with date-gone-by foods, messy appearance, and a general dump”? Money talks. If it’s “working” now, what’s the incentive to change things? Is Schnuck’s the bad boys for not doing better by the neighborhood? Or, are they the good boys, for sticking by the neighborhood? Urban groceries are a challenge, with a diverse clientele. They’ll never be good enough for some residents, but without them, other residents would be left with the likes of Walgreens, or worse!
I agree the Grand & Gravois Schnucks is a disgrace, the site planning is awful and the shopping experience is pretty bad. But DESCO razed a building listed on the National Register of Historic Places, not sure what was razed for the Grand & Gravois Schnucks but doubtful of the same caliber.
Whether National Register listed or not, the area of the G and G Schnucks was National Register *eligible*. Just another example of downtown preservation being favored over neighborhood preservation (need another example – look at the hoopla over the rotted and dangerous Cupples demo happening now). Frankly, the area around G and G was far more historically intact by percentage of historic buildings remaining than any three or four block area of downtown.
Don’t make this out to be some big downtown conspiracy, I’ve lived 17 of my 23 years in St. Louis in several neighborhoods before moving downtown. Tomorrow’s post, in fact, mentions Grand & Gravois.
I’ve heard remarks like this about the Grand & Gravois Schnucks ad nauseum…this is a few blocks from my house and where I always shop, and I have to say, I just don’t see it. They’ve always had everything I need, it’s not dirty, it’s produce is good whenever I’ve been there, and they have a pretty good selection of international fare, geared toward the large immigrant population in the neighborhood. Granted, it doesn’t look like a Schnucks out in affluent west county, but does it have to? At any rate, it’s undergoing some updates as we speak, so I hope this will satisfy those who require a more pristine shopping experience.
I shop at this Schnucks frequently too. Don’t have any trouble finding what I want to buy. The rest rooms definitely need an upgrade.
Just to share, my Schnucks I’m affton and the one in south city also has tvs
Unlike broccoli, TV’s don’t get stale and they carry a higher profit margin.
What do you base this on? Televisions sets have a low profit margin that’s dropping. http://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-profit-margin-televisions-34457.html
TV’s do have a low profit margin, probably comparable with produce but unlike produce they have a long a shelf life and at that price they’re probably doing great volume on them. That’s the grocery business, low margin, high volume.
They removed the TV display this afternoon while I was there shopping.
Electronics in grocery stores are probably overpriced (for the item in question) because they are marketing to impulse buyers who are already in the store, rather than comparison shoppers. So they would make a profit.
From the quality of meat, to the bizarre-o bagging procedures, Schnucks has never impressed me much (likewise with the other local chain). The two big STL based grocery chains, due to their virtual monopoly, don’t need to try/inavate…so they don’t.
I dunno I think the St. Louis has lots of competition. We have everything from Wholefoods, Trader Joes, Aldi, Shop & Save, Save a-lot, Soulard Market, Walmart, Sams Club, Target, Straubs, some mom and pop places and Costco in addition to Schnucks and Deirbergs. How much more competition do you want?
Precisely! For those keeping score, hipster or not, St. Louis is by far one of the most interesting grocery markets of any major US market. It’s small town corner store meets big city competition. An we all are the better for hit.
Culinaria sure knows how to push a lot of little crap. Sections of it look like a dollar store, with bins, baskets, and ranks full of junk. Ever since it opened, it has gone beyond being a solid grocery store and has done all it can to inrementally duplicate services found at other business. Place across the street has a RedBox? Let’s put in a RedBox. Store over there has books? Let’s put up a rack full of books. Souvenirs available at another store? Let’s sell kitschy souvenirs. That’s their right as a business, but I don’t buy the “lack of floor space” thing.
Agreed, it looks like the merchandiser is a hoarder. Terribly cluttered appearance. They could learn a few things from browsing a Straub’s.
Straub’s? Are you serious? Take the most foo-foo grocer in town and use them as a the standard for everyone else? Please. Why don’t you ask Straub’s why they haven’t a store in downtown? Or at Grand and Gravois? Or in North City.
Yes, Straub’s has an excellent selection of product in a small space. I go there to get stuff I need that Culinaria doesn’t stock. Their TV selection sucks though…
Schnucks in webster has books, has a red box and has various sports souveniers.
Not sure what that proves one way or another
Unlike other suburban Schnucks locations, Culinaria opened with “limited floor space” and had none of those things because there wasn’t enough space. As other retailers attempted to offer something Culinaria didn’t, it poached them one by one…..while still saying it has “limited space.”
Welcome to the wonderful world of retail. What you call “poaching” others call competition. Yes Culinaria has limited space, especially compared to a suburban location that’s twice as big, but their goal, like any other retailer, is to find what sells to the customers it has and the customers it wants. They know full well that if you can’t find it on their shelves, you WILL shop elsewhere. Steve wanted unbleached flour, Steve asked, Steve got – smart retailing. I want Hatch chilies, but I can’t find them anywhere around here, so I rely on the internet. My request is way more obscure (here) than Steve’s, so I have little expectation that any local retailer will maintain a stock of anything “just for me”. It makes no sense to dedicate a square foot in the produce section, every day, for something I may buy just once a month (and few other people would have a clue what they’re good for)!
If you noticed, I said this is their right as a business (even a subsidized one) to do what they want. I was just commenting that Culinara (a) looks a bit trashy and (b) can’t really make a case of “limited floor space”, when they turn into a junky retail shop and not focus on being an upscale grocery store.
It’s true but for some of that stuff it’s the only place downtown where you can get any of it.
I laughed at some of the comments here. 1) Every city has home-town grocers who dominate the local market. Why should they “inavate”?They do well just to stay in business. Profit margins in the grocery business are very low….especially in areas where five-finger discount shopping is the norm. 2) Parking garages are not friendly retail buildout spaces! I repeat: not retail- buildout friendly! They are not watertight. They’re typically post tensioned, and are designed to flex. The garage needs to move; otherwise it will crack and crumble! So, in a good PT design, you’ll find a lot of “designed” joints (or cracks). Water tends to flow through these cracks! Not good for retail below. PT decks offer very little flexibility for the engineers/architect designing the retail spaces. You can’t hang much from the underside of a deck because of the presence of the PT cables, which will explode the slab if they’re violated. Flexible waterproofing and caulking materials are initially expensive, are prone to fail due to movement, and contribute to the ongoing maintenance costs of doing business= “higher prices” and/or “lower margins”. And contractors can’t drill holes without x-raying the decks because of the PT cables. This is costly….and not always totally accurate. When cars travel over the decks, the decks are designed to undulate in wave action so that they don’t crack and collapse….all of which creates a hostile environment below, one that is essentially unsuitable for retail. How do you hang a rigid wet sprinkler system from a deck that moves around like a maggot on a hot griddle? I’ll tell you how: you add lots of costly expansion accommodation! Look around town at the PT garages with ground-floor retail. Most of the retail spaces are empty. If Schnucks developed Culinaria in the retail space because no one else would, I would say you should get on your knees and thank them profusely! Every day! Most garage developers cringe when they have to consider their options for development of retail space, but they agree to it only to satisfy the urbanists. 3) I would gladly buy a TV at a grocery store if the price were competitive. Hell, you can buy extension cords, deodorant, rubbers and cigarettes there (all non-food items), why not a TV or a Fiat?
Steve gripes everyday about unused space in this city, and then has the audacity to gripe about what items are sold in the space that is developed. Classic.
Yes, as a citizen in our city exercise my right to complain and work to make it better. As a near daily shopper at Culinaria I also have a right to complain when they sell TVs while using a slogan about foodies but don’t sell the ingredients foodies want.
Eons ago when I worked for Schnucks, there was a conscious decision to eliminate the restaurants “Station” restaurants when the Schunck’s family found out they could make more money from selling health care products and pharmaceuticals than they could from a restaurant. Bottom line…it’s all about the profit margin. They aren’t going to offer TV’s if they couldn’t profit on them. And that goes for any retailer.
If memory serves, Schnucks had no problem deserting downtown a couple decades ago when they abandoned their location in the old Famous Barr garage.
Yes, they did come back and pump money into Culinaria, which occasionally gets my money when I’m in the area and need something. It’s an interesting store.
They also had no problem negotiating a few financial incentives from the city to develop the new store, and who wouldn’t make an effort to get all the help the city offers? One name does come to mind in answer to that question: City Grocer, the independent business that was put out of business, I believe, when Culinaria came in. I don’t recall them asking for city incentives to open up, yet incentives given to a competitor put them out of business.
As is always the case, there was probably a lot that went on behind the scenes here that we’ll never know about. On the surface, though, it looks like Mayor Slay et al did a big favor for the Schnucks folks, even after the grocer had fled from a previous downtown location.
The owner of City Grocer (Dave Bailey?) has gone on record several times that he didnt set out to be one — he was just filling a need, simple as that. In fact, I’m pretty sure he was happy to see Culinaria move in downtown — a stable, fully-stocked downtown grocery can only help the quality of downtown, and thus, the viability of his buildings and his businesses.
And I can’t imagine that, even before Culinaria, his grocery store was as lucrative or as popular as Range is now.
You’re right, he didn’t want to be a grocer. But after Schnucks opened, it was my understanding that he wanted to keep that retail space operating. Anything that appeared in the City Grocers space as a potential new revenue source was magically duplicated at Culinaria a few weeks later.
Craig Heller, btw.
My thoughts: The Schnucks at Grand and Gravios replaced the old Alxeian Brothers’ Hospital…(I think that’s the name). It was the one where the Exorcism was held..3rd floor, etc. It is a disgrace. I think it’s due to both customers and management. More management burnout…why keep trying to refresh it when it’s just trashed time after time. Even the parking lot is a disgrace at times. Though this is closer, I prefer the Schnucks over on Arsenal or Loughborough. Cleaner, fresher, safer.
Diebergs….just racist and anti-city. For those with history here in St. Louis, it was said back in the 80’s when they built at the City line, they would never build in the City…decades later…still haven’t. No excuse for them to still be out in the county. And I won’t shop there (I use to back in the 70’s as they were better than Schnucks, though a bit more expensive).
Shop n Save is just down the street from Schnucks at Grand….It’s great, it’s nice. Don’t understand why there is also smaller one at Kings. and Chipp less than two miles away. I prefer the one on Gravois or the one at the City line. Especially on $10.00 off days. And they are national, but local chain…and the only one of their “fleet” to make profits.
The Culinaria downtown ranks up there with Straubs with me. If they were closer, we would shop there every time. Fresh, clean, vibrant, local, friendly customers AND employees. And variety out the wazzu as we love going down the isle and picking out new things to try. When I’m downtown, I have stopped in to pick stuff up for dinner that night, but not for weekly groceries (just too much to do/get at one time).
For international food….Jay’s on South Grand. Anyplace else is like saying I’m going to the International House of Pancakes for international food.
Alexian Brothers Hospital was never on Grand. It was on Broadway, and today it operates under the name of St. Alexius Hospital. You are right that an exorcism was performed at Alexian Brothers Hospital. I think you have your grocery stores and hospitals mixed up. The old National grocery store at the corner of Chippiwawa and Grand is built on the site of a former hospital (I believe it was St Johns Mercy, but I’m not entirely sure.)
I beleive it was St Anthonys at Grand and Chippewa before it moved
to South County
Furtther to old hospital sites. St Johns was on Euclid just south of
Forest Park parkway; DePaul was on north kingshighway near
Natural Beidge; and Missouri Baptist was on Taylor just north of
Delmar
In 1909 the site of the Grand & Gravois Schnucks had the Little Sisters of the Poor home for the aged. I don’t know when it was razed.
Point being?
One point being is that Catholics built this environment. *Community* built this envirornment
Gees….whatever. My point was that Schnucks was built on a now defunct hospital. Does it really matter what the name was? And No, I’m not mixed up. The exorcism was performed on the 3rd floor of the old hospital at the corner of Grand and Chippewa. My point being that Schnucks does not take care of this store…interior or exterior.
Correction: Grand and Gravois. Grand and Chippewa was a National store as were the ones at Jefferson and 44 and Grand and Magnolia which all closed when they were sold to Krogers. The Grand/Chip. old National site is now a disgusting medical business that looks like a walled prison from Grand. Not very inviting at all.
Actually, Moe, you are mistaken. The famous exorcism, conducted by two Jesuits from SLU and the basis for the movie, was conducted in the original building of Alexian Brothers Hospital, which is located on South Broadway. The room was sealed after the exorcism. The building is no longer standing, I believe. Check your facts.
I know who is right and wrong on what hospital where but do appreciate the tidbit of the famous exorcism history being talked about. A bit of St. Louis history I never heard about while in the area. Thanks.
Steve, I’m a big supporter of yours. I’m a recent downtown dweller of two years, I’m a huge proponent of saving our historic buildings, and I completely empathize and support your efforts to make our city more habitable and wheelchair friendly (my mom is in an electric wheelchair)
But I’m baffled by this. You seem to have a love/hate for Culinaria. You love it because we need a store like this downtown but hate it because of the selection and how it came to be. I get that you want to improve the selection, but we’ve lost the battle for the Century and need to save that energy for the next fight. We can change the future, we can’t change the past.
Yes, love/hate relationship. We must not forgot the past or we will repeat mistakes.
As far as the past goes, most of the best of *Saint* Louis was built by Catholics. Most of. ‘Tis true.
And most of the best of Istanbul was built by Muslims. Waht’s your point? The religious majority built most of the buildings – it’s simple math / statistics . . . .
This comment thread is hilarious. Where else does a discussion of a downtown grocer occupying the ground floor of a parking garage turn into a discussion of exorcisms and world religions?
Steve if you don’t like the store just shop somewhere else and stop the complaining. The employees work hard and need to build business to support their families. Your comments only put jobs in jeopardy if others accept your opinion as fact without investigating whether the store can satisfy their shopping needs not yours.
Uh? Steve has stated that he shops at Straub’s and such as needed. As a manager, I wouldn’t take offense to his critique. Matter of fact, if quite a few customers had a complaint…say in this instance TV’s…I would take that as note to get them moved lest I piss them off and they go elsewhere permantly. One or two complaints is one thing, but a dozen is another entirely.
Another thought on tv is that Steve is lucky…he has a partner that can take him and/or his own mobility…but what of those that don’t? The City went long enough being a food desert. Perhaps that floor space could be better utilized for, say, food.
Staying silent helps no one.
And after 4 years I think Schnuck’s has built that business meaning that they have a solid core and stable employee base. They aren’t like a new business that doesn’t know it’s going to survive week to week.
When you don’t have a car, shopping elsewhere isn’t easy. Yesterday I bought King Arthur Flour at Culinaria, a product they now stock because I personally complained to the grocery manager. I have his email address so I send him links to products I feel they need to carry, and we chat in the store. I also chat with the producer manager. I’m personal friends with a few if the cashiers.
City Grocers did receive substantial subsidy from the city of St. Louis and affiliated economic development entities. Craig Heller was the owner, but his main business was developing lofts downtown (Loftworks LLC). Before that, he was John Steffen’s business partner at Pyramid. (Dave Bailey opened a restaurant in the same space after City Grocers closed.)
Culinaria isn’t a perfect store, but considering the state of downtown retail it’s certainly adequate.
The South City Schnucks at Grand and Gravois has never been my favorite store, although its construction goes back to 1988-89 or so when I believe the old-time aldermen were still in charge around there (Geraldine Osborn, Louis Buckowitz, etc.) so I don’t think there would have been much concern about historic preservation at that time – although I’m sure the buildings would have been National Register eligible, maybe somebody documented them but I don’t know for certain.
St. Anthony’s Hospital was demolished in 1974 to make way for National Supermarkets in 1975, at Grand and Chippewa. That store closed shortly after the 1995 acquisition of National’s STL operations by Schnucks — just too close together, I suppose. (I think there’s an FTC press release somewhere out there about all the closings/sales to others. Can’t remember when it became a call center as it is now.)
Alexian Brothers was (and still is, as St. Alexius) located at S. Broadway and Keokuk. The “exorcism” site was demolished in 1977-78 or so to make way for the current structure.
An aside about the South Grand corridor around Schnucks:
It’s sad to see that, even as Grand South Grand from Arsenal to Utah is as vibrant as ever with a variety of restaurants and viable neighborhood-oriented retail, the stretch from Utah to Meramec has seen many businesses close just in the past ten years. They include Nettie’s Flower Garden, Burger King, Arby’s, McDonald’s, and several others like the Afghan Market that burned but I believe reopened next door. That stretch has always been more about neighborhood-oriented business and very convenient to public transit. But it somehow feels less safe than it did just five years ago. It’s disappointing, because it’s still a very densely populated neighborhood with lots of recent immigrants and a very diverse population. Partly it’s due to the down economy, and partly it’s due to a lack of a current economic development strategy for that corridor which is split between different neighborhood associations and different aldermen. Although the rehab of South Side National Bank and the new senior apartments on the Sears site are important signals of great potential, there’s still more room for growth. And it’s important for the city as a whole to figure out ways to attract more businesses there, because it’s a high-density transit route and surrounded by very viable, attractive housing stock. It’s not a zero-sum game, new activity leads to more activity and more perceptions of safety – and not all new development has to be anchored by a big institution or a highway off-ramp.
Since this store and development were subsidized by the City of St. Louis (with a TIF and possibly other incentives I believe), is Schnucks required to report its earnings out of this location to the city?
And if they are making more money at the store than was projected in the financial model’s “but for” test, are they required to pay back the TIF earlier, or provide some other payment to the city?
Since the city is sharing the risk/subsidizing the project, it would seem that if there is an upside beyond projections, the city should share in that too. And if this is indeed what is happening, then it would certainly help make the case that the demolition of the Century Building was worth the price.
Another interesting survey would be to ask whether the addition of Culinaria to downtown has increased the rate of people moving downtown or other stores opening? And if the answer to those questions were yes, then it’s more proof that the demolition of the Century was worth it.
In all such planning and other government policy matters, its the outcomes that matter. Years after the opening of Culinaria and the demolition of the Century, we can start to assess the outcomes of those decisions. Have they paid off? Were they worth it? Were civic goals met?
Steve – I came to the weekly poll thread hoping to get a non-biased discussion on the benefits and downsides (or where improvement is needed) to the Culinaria. Instead, I think you have tried to make an argument that they haven’t done enough. Enough for who? You seem angry about T.V’s but not thankful that even with 30+ people in line at it’s peak usage, it only takes a few minutes to get through due to their “wierd” bagging technique. And i’d agree with the statement of comparison to Straubs. Straubs sells a few of the “typical” grocery items with a large selection of specialty items with a mark up on everything to even out the gap. If I were interested in $8 boxes of cereal or $20 cheeses, i’d go to Straubs.
I work downtown and buy my weekly lunch groceries (not individual meals) at the Culinaria each week. I feel it is clean, well laid out due to its size *which by the way is closer to a third of a normal grocery retailer*, and the tellers are generally happy and eager to keep things moving. There is a moderate selection of just about everything, and I think it has done well to the downtown shopper. My highlights and downsides would be as listed below.
Highlights:
Central location and within a vibrant pedestrian area.
Caters to a made-to-order lunch selection which rivals most restaurants downtown on a dollar to dollar comparison.
Sticks to what is needed… Not an entire row of different types of toliet paper and paper towels as in every one of its full size stores.
Kaldi’s Coffee bar.
Made to order seafood… did you even know that you can have a marinated fillet of fish cooked to order for your lunch or bring home dinner in a matter of minutes.
Good beer, liquor and wine selection. It was smart to keep this upstairs to closely monitor theft of higher priced liquor.
Safe – a police officer on hand for any emergency situation.
Clean.
Downsides;
Lacks in more full size options for personal toiletries. Caters more to the travel size.
Needs better waiting area for prescriptions.
Needs better traffic flow for made-to-order meals.
Could use a larger selection – not quantity, but variety – of fruits and vegetables.
More welcoming outside seating with monitoring of loitering.
I’ve been a regular shopper at Culinaria for 4 years now, all too often they don’t have a grocery item I need to prepare a dish, or what they have is low quality — like only offering bleached flour when they open. Over the years I’ve complained enough it isn’t too bad now, but I’ve had to make many trips to other stores to get what they didn’t sell.
I’ve complained enough it isn’t too bad now….or have you just adjusted your expectations?
The Hampton Village Schnucks sells the same flat screen TVs for about two hundred bucks. Nothing special about Culinaria’s offer. Just looks like Schnucks came into a good deal on televisions.
A few days after this poll came out Culinaria removed the TVs from the floor, putting some in storage and putting others on top of an end cap. This freed floor space for displaying…food. This Craig TV is cheaper at Walmart.