Readers Split on New Urbanist Village at Nearly Dead Jamestown Mall
As I expected, there was no consensus among readers on the poll last week:
Q:Â Thoughts on the Plan to Raze Jamestown Mall and build a New Urbanist Village?
- The sooner we rebuild auto-centric suburbs into walkable communities the better 23 [21.7%]
- Nice concept but will probably require too much public subsidy 18 [16.98%]
- Huge waste of time, money and energy to try to make the suburbs walkable 16 [15.09%]
- The mall is privately owned, St. Louis County shouldn’t be involved at all 14 [13.21%]
- New Urbanism is artificial urbanism 13 [12.26%]
- Other answer… 11 [10.38%]
- Government must change the zoning to do anything different with the site. 6 [5.66%]
- unsure/no opinion 4 [3.77%]
- Jamestown Mall should not be razed 1 [0.94%]
For a while the huge waste of time answer was in the top spot, glad to see it drop to #3. Â The reason St. Louis County is involved is the property is located in unincorporated St. Louis County. Â The county is taking a proactive step in figuring out what is best for the area so that zoning and other land-use laws can be modified to ensure what happens at the site is what the community wants.
- the development area is in a far corner of NoCo, right idea, wrong place
- Seems too far removed from major pop. to be worth the money.
- The plans formulated today will someday fail just as those of our forefathers.
- They should build an Ikea there instead
- Return it to greenspace
- Wrong location, location, location.
- If we don’t redevelope, we’ll soon be a community of empty shopping ce
- Turn it into something different.
- Downzone to agriculture/mix. Anything but this dumb idea!
- Location, location, location!
- Work with the active business owners to create a revitalization plan
To me the site is the ideal location for such a retrofit. I visited the mall before my original post, arriving on a MetroBus from the Hanley MetroLink station.  I was impressed how busy the bus was all along Lindbergh. I’ve visited the area again during the poll, this time I drove up 367 from North St. Louis and then south on Lindbergh (67) when I left. Google Maps is a great resource but it is no substitute for seeing a place first hand.
To many living in a new home where they can walk to shops and be surrounded by a green ring is idea, very English.
And new homes are being constructed very close to the mall, mostly along Lindbergh Blvd. Â The above example is on Misty Crossing Ct, in the Misty Hollow subdivision.
Pure economics dictate the mall site will never be agriculture or green space ever again, the four concepts for the site included one that was pretty green.
The “Garden Suburb Plan” is the most green of the four, although most leave the SW tip undeveloped. Note the existing houses immediately to the south and west of the site (aerial view). Two dead end streets for the existing Fox Manor subdivision would be connected to the redeveloped site in this plan and two others. Currently the adjacent Fox Manor subdivision has only one way in or out – directly onto Lindbergh Blvd. These existing homes would now be connected to other homes and businesses.
The comments on the post were interesting but often way off base like these poll answers.
– Steve Patterson
I’d put my money on the Park & Village plan. Neither the existing property owners nor the county are going to willingly walk away from commercial uses in favor of a new residential subdivision. I also have serious reservations about the two plans that attempt to preserve the two anchors while hiding them behind new housing along Lindbergh. Part of the challenge facing the current center is that it’s hard to find and get to; making it even harder makes no sense, at all. That said, all of the plans seem to offer some interesting visions for the future. The real challenge will be finding a developer that will actually make it happen. There is obviously a market for new housing nearby. The question is whether dedicating a quarter of the site to parks and open space (in the Garden Suburb plan) will “pencil out” or not? I’ve seen plans like this suceed and I’ve seen plans like this end up on shelves, gathering dust. I know it sounds crass, but money talks. Amenities cost money, and either the buyers or the taxpayers will have to pay for them.
I’d put my money on the Park & Village plan. Neither the existing property owners nor the county are going to willingly walk away from commercial uses in favor of a new residential subdivision. I also have serious reservations about the two plans that attempt to preserve the two anchors while hiding them behind new housing along Lindbergh. Part of the challenge facing the current center is that it’s hard to find and get to; making it even harder makes no sense, at all. That said, all of the plans seem to offer some interesting visions for the future. The real challenge will be finding a developer that will actually make it happen. There is obviously a market for new housing nearby. The question is whether dedicating a quarter of the site to parks and open space (in the Garden Suburb plan) will “pencil out” or not? I’ve seen plans like this suceed and I’ve seen plans like this end up on shelves, gathering dust. I know it sounds crass, but money talks. Amenities cost money, and either the buyers or the taxpayers will have to pay for them.
how is this any different from New Town in St. Charles?
how is this any different from New Town in St. Charles?
New Town was built with nothing around it on a “greenfield” site, the four concepts for the Jamestown Mall site would be going in an established area on previously developed land.
New Town was built with nothing around it on a “greenfield” site, the four concepts for the Jamestown Mall site would be going in an established area on previously developed land.
Something like this would have been nice: http://www.grist.org/urbanism/2011-06-06-seattle-urbanism-transit-state-of-the-art-green-mixed-planning;
Something like this would have been nice: http://www.grist.org/urbanism/2011-06-06-seattle-urbanism-transit-state-of-the-art-green-mixed-planning;
Need to erase the semi-colon from the end of the link for it to work . . . . Looks great, but I doubt there’s that type of real demand here . . . .
Well, demand or no, the Seattle development is superior to stated alternatives at Jamestown, at least with regards to density and stormwater retention. Still, it is good to see stormwater retention at least in the plans for JT. Thanks for the pick up on the semicolon. Perhaps this will be better:http://www.grist.org/urbanism/2011-06-06-seattle-urbanism-transit-state-of-the-art-green-mixed-planning
That got it.
Nice post and at awe with what was built. My thought, At 9 acres I would put this development in the city or at least within walking distance of Metrolink and near an existing or proposed greenway corridor if it was to be built in the county – maybe Vincent greenway near UMSL or near North Hanley where you got one of those old airport off site parking lots next to the horse farm (SE of I70-I170 interchange), etc. before ever promoting as a replacement to Jamestown Mall. Not only does this type of density needs demand as JZ71 alluded to but also some connectivity beyond a suburban arterial roadway.
Which gets back to my support for simply letting the place be bulldozed, allow single residential units to be built with a reasonable amount of green space and decent street grid as outlined by one of the renderings that Steve posted (maybe promote homes with high efficiency performance and solar power). Add some small scale commercial space. The reality is that their is already a too much retail space built out, it won’t hurt to start bulldozing and offering homes closer to the core then another 10, 15, or 20 miles or more is still a gain for the region relatively speaking. Especially if the region can get the China Air Cargo hub off the ground. This location offers a relatively easy commute to and from Lambert without having to build more highways or lanes.
Yeah, waaaaay, waaay too much retail space in this country: the next bubble, from what I hear, but I’ve been hearing that for two years. I think building a new development with homes that are super-efficient (at perhaps 5% over market cost–it’s really just a matter of design and engineering, rather than materials, anyway) would be a good idea. But, meh, this is the Loo, er, Lou.
Need to erase the semi-colon from the end of the link for it to work . . . . Looks great, but I doubt there’s that type of real demand here . . . .
Well, demand or no, the Seattle development is superior to stated alternatives at Jamestown, at least with regards to density and stormwater retention. Still, it is good to see stormwater retention at least in the plans for JT. Thanks for the pick up on the semicolon. Perhaps this will be better:http://www.grist.org/urbanism/2011-06-06-seattle-urbanism-transit-state-of-the-art-green-mixed-planning
That got it.
Nice post and at awe with what was built. My thought, At 9 acres I would put this development in the city or at least within walking distance of Metrolink and near an existing or proposed greenway corridor if it was to be built in the county – maybe Vincent greenway near UMSL or near North Hanley where you got one of those old airport off site parking lots next to the horse farm (SE of I70-I170 interchange), etc. before ever promoting as a replacement to Jamestown Mall. Not only does this type of density needs demand as JZ71 alluded to but also some connectivity beyond a suburban arterial roadway.
Which gets back to my support for simply letting the place be bulldozed, allow single residential units to be built with a reasonable amount of green space and decent street grid as outlined by one of the renderings that Steve posted (maybe promote homes with high efficiency performance and solar power). Add some small scale commercial space. The reality is that their is already a too much retail space built out, it won’t hurt to start bulldozing and offering homes closer to the core then another 10, 15, or 20 miles or more is still a gain for the region relatively speaking. Especially if the region can get the China Air Cargo hub off the ground. This location offers a relatively easy commute to and from Lambert without having to build more highways or lanes.
Yeah, waaaaay, waaay too much retail space in this country: the next bubble, from what I hear, but I’ve been hearing that for two years. I think building a new development with homes that are super-efficient (at perhaps 5% over market cost–it’s really just a matter of design and engineering, rather than materials, anyway) would be a good idea. But, meh, this is the Loo, er, Lou.
As someone who grew up, only a half mile north of this mall, in unincorporated St. Louis County near Parker Rd, but now resides in homely “ole” Kirkwood, the simple idea of bringing some life to this portion of the region excites me. A recent trip up north, past the home my parents called their first in 1971, 14453 Fox Manor, and later the one I called home, 1736 Arrow Point Drive, to Alton Ill showed just how much had changed. The area just SW of Jamestown Mall has seen a dramatic face lift in just the past ten years, from sleepy–vacated Cross Keys, to a thriving host of Big Box stores and development which has certainly brought new meaning to the phrase, “Restaurant Row” (N. Lindbergh between New Halls Ferry and Patterson).Â
In fact, as much as I disdain big box developments as mere short term, economically neutral (at least personal income wise) parties to suburban growth–in this far flung region of North County–it really has brought back a thriving economy. And its ridiculous that three minutes worth of driving north on Lindbergh from New Halls Ferry past the old Bellman estate  lands one into a seemingly rural, dilapidated space, incredibly–at the corner of a major intersection of Lindbergh and 367–itself stunningly underdeveloped. Steve’s post pointed to the Misty Crossing development, itself a Consort (think Wentzville, MO) development, while I believe most new/modern development around that area is done by Bellman. The important point of course being that there is development, and any drive will show just how much land is still yet undeveloped both near the mall and as far as Spanish Lake. Any residential development is positive so far as the population demands it–and can afford to keep it, I’m not sure the statistics but I recall during our drive to Alton, in passing the old Bellman Estate (now a large development), father mentioning a high foreclosure rate among the residents living in the Bellman properties–not good.Â
I’d like to see a solid plan which features both residential (small family spaces) as well as light commercial needs. Keep in mind, for those who aren’t too familiar with that area–three minutes really is the time it takes for anyone near Jamestown to access a Wal-Mart/Target, Schnucks or Kmart, Handyman Hardware or Sears. I don’t think this space really requires ultra-transformation, nice homes, affordable–but nice, a mid-size recreational facility/space, and a few small food/retail outlets at the very most. It’s tragic that the mall fell out of favor, I really loved spending time there as a kid pretending the tractors in Sears were sports cars, and tormenting the poor soul who volunteered the role as Santa during the holiday season.
As someone who grew up, only a half mile north of this mall, in unincorporated St. Louis County near Parker Rd, but now resides in homely “ole” Kirkwood, the simple idea of bringing some life to this portion of the region excites me. A recent trip up north, past the home my parents called their first in 1971, 14453 Fox Manor, and later the one I called home, 1736 Arrow Point Drive, to Alton Ill showed just how much had changed. The area just SW of Jamestown Mall has seen a dramatic face lift in just the past ten years, from sleepy–vacated Cross Keys, to a thriving host of Big Box stores and development which has certainly brought new meaning to the phrase, “Restaurant Row” (N. Lindbergh between New Halls Ferry and Patterson).
In fact, as much as I disdain big box developments as mere short term, economically neutral (at least personal income wise) parties to suburban growth–in this far flung region of North County–it really has brought back a thriving economy. And its ridiculous that three minutes worth of driving north on Lindbergh from New Halls Ferry past the old Bellman estate lands one into a seemingly rural, dilapidated space, incredibly–at the corner of a major intersection of Lindbergh and 367–itself stunningly underdeveloped. Steve’s post pointed to the Misty Crossing development, itself a Consort (think Wentzville, MO) development, while I believe most new/modern development around that area is done by Bellman. The important point of course being that there is development, and any drive will show just how much land is still yet undeveloped both near the mall and as far as Spanish Lake. Any residential development is positive so far as the population demands it–and can afford to keep it, I’m not sure the statistics but I recall during our drive to Alton, in passing the old Bellman Estate (now a large development), father mentioning a high foreclosure rate among the residents living in the Bellman properties–not good.
I’d like to see a solid plan which features both residential (small family spaces) as well as light commercial needs. Keep in mind, for those who aren’t too familiar with that area–three minutes really is the time it takes for anyone near Jamestown to access a Wal-Mart/Target, Schnucks or Kmart, Handyman Hardware or Sears. I don’t think this space really requires ultra-transformation, nice homes, affordable–but nice, a mid-size recreational facility/space, and a few small food/retail outlets at the very most. It’s tragic that the mall fell out of favor, I really loved spending time there as a kid pretending the tractors in Sears were sports cars, and tormenting the poor soul who volunteered the role as Santa during the holiday season.