Urban Review STL

It has been my experience that nothing gets done at neighborhood meetings. People glad hand each other - complaints are forged, heard but rarely acted on. And, if they are, it's rarely because of the group - it's more likely because some major catastrophe moved the issue along or forced a decision. I vote to re-imagine the community meeting.

Great topic Steve

I went to my neighborhood meeting in Benton Park. Once. There was a lot of complaining... a clear divide on every topic (large and small) between the "old heads" of the neighborhood and the newer residents. It was clear the lifers felt entitled to seniority. Every single topic becoming heated made me feel uncomfortable. The meeting dragged on and I got zero sense of community. I ended up walking out early and never going to one again.

Janet

My experience comes from the DeBaliviere Neighborhood. I wonder how one would go about fostering a better environment in a neighborhood meeting as I think there is real value there. Do you think part of the issue is that is all volunteer thus there is no real accountability for results?

I'm not sure. A lot of it is just leadership dynamics in play. It seems only the loudest voices get heard. I feel like everyone has the same end goal but it is easily forgotten.

I think the right meeting facilitator (President or whomever?) can make or break the productivity of a meeting. They are the one who keeps it on track, tactfully cut off people speaking who have gone past productive input and into tangent territory, and most importantly keep the meeting ON TIME. Truthfully I didn't walk out of that one meeting "early" - I left after it was supposed to end but it was clear it was nowhere near ending.

I am not sure of the best solution, but I feel like paid positions would only muddy the waters on motivation and encourage further criticism of the board member. Right now you may hate the job the board is doing but you know it is a labor of love. I think a better solution is to have strict limited terms for every board member - that way the leadership is rotating and more voices are heard.

While I had an awful experience at the meeting, I can't say nothing gets done in Benton Park. I think residents are interested in DOING rather than talking - we would have pretty good attendance at neighborhood functions and got a beautiful community garden a few years ago. I think the growing interest (and therefore, population and businesses) in Benton Park is helping to increase the diversity and amount of voices heard.

Janet

You make some very good points - certainly made me think about my own experience a little more mindfully. I agree with the thought on leadership - it's a monumental task to lead a not for profit organization as you really do rely on the innate passions of others. Thanks for the perspective - made me think a bit more positively.

Janet I'm glad you posted! I live in Benton Park and have though quite a bit about going to the neighborhood meetings, but that's exactly what I'm afraid of. I'm a younger resident who is definitely all for new restaurants, night spots etc. I have heard that the BPNA is mostly old heads, and while I feel guilty for not stepping up and making a difference, the truth is that is exactly why I haven't been.

Someone from BPNA approached me in a bar the other evening and asked me to sign a petition to prevent a tattoo shop from opening at Lemp @ Arsenal......because a blank storefront is much more aesthetically appealing than a filthy tattoo shop full of vagrants and hoosiers no doubt (groan)

Hah, that is kind of funny about the petition. I know exactly the corner that place wants to go. I lived right next to it. Regarding the meeting, I too was a relatively new resident (less than 3 years) and a renter and I think those are (in some ways) two strikes against you in a neighborhood with a lot of lifelong residents. Not to knock them - there are some great folks and god bless them for sticking with Benton Park through its rougher times. I loved the neighbors on my street and all the business owners around Benton Park.

Enjoying this thread a lot.

I never went to the neighborhood meetings in my old neighborhood (Clayton-Tamm, aka Dogtown) because honestly, without a working website and after watching the community leaders taking over the neighborhood coffee shop, I got the feeling that they were really not interested in what a young renter had to say. I should probably have gotten over that and gone anyway...

But, I moved recently and would have to say there is a very good chance I'll be at the next Southwest Garden neighborhood meeting. I've already signed up for their email list and checked out the website/newsletter. Who knows what the politics are like but I am certain they want to know what the renters think. Dana (the ED) actually told me that they are very interested in engaging renters, knowing full well that 62% of the area is renting vs. owning.

I fully agree that standard "rules of order" make little sense when consensus has been shown to bring more people into the decision making and gives each final decision a heck of a lot more ownership. However, it can be ridiculously hard to work towards consensus though, which is why I am certain the status quo of meeting procedures remains.

I can never go to my neighborhood's meetings because they're the same night I always work. I went to alot of community meetings in Washington, DC, and fist fights would break out, or some bully would show up, argue and try and hijack the meeting, before usually storming off in a hissy fit. Attendance was always so low--10 people in a neighborhood of 1000, that it became obvious it didn't matter, sadly.

As a neighborhood president it is vitally important that you attend the meetings and more importantly you join and pay dues. Keep in mind these are all volunteer positions. I cannot speak for other neighborhoods, but for ours we use all of the dues to keep the neighborhood beautiful, plant trees, print and design newsletters, attend meetings on neighbors behalf, holiday decor contests, movie nights in the parks...this stuff is not free to put on for sure. Sure, neighbors get divided and heated, but that is what is so great, just keep in mind the passion that is underneath.

I appreciate the volunteer efforts but some neighborhoods have paid staff. Most, in my view, are poorly run. The intentions are good but the outcome can be frustrating. Many would benefit from looking at how their business is conducted and if a change is necessary to get broader participation.

Which neighborhood groups have paid staff? Most groups with paid staff, that I've seen, have been business organizations. Most residential groups are made up entirely of volunteers and use their dues for newslatters and small projects.

Many neighborhood groups receive CDBG funds to pay for office and at least one staff person.

Neighborhood associations have to straddle that very grey line between being a voice/advocate for the neighborhood and for being an outlet to express your concerns, big or small. What really makes a neighborhood association run fluidly is leadership that allows for both. One of the key elements in a successful neighborhood association is communication. You need to be able to make the meetings and events meaningful for those involved and for those who are not. I ran the Clifton Heights Neighborhood Association for close to three years and my neighbors to my immediate sides never went but they still knew what was going on via a newsletter, website and email blasts from us.

I totally disagree with you steve on Roberts - you need it in order to run a coherent meeting and to legally follow your duties as an elected officer of your neighborhood association. There isn't a need to be a dictator about it but there is also no need to rehash the same issue on a treasurer;s report for 45 minutes, ya know?

I really wish more people were involved in the neighborhood associations and I know that I along with the others on our board and our membership did what we could to get more people out. It is very difficult to motivate someone to come out to a school cafeteria on a monday night after you've spent all day at work, taken care of your kids, done a load or two of laundry and cooked dinner to come out and discuss the minutae of an event six months in advance. I will also truthfully say that I have not been involved as much as I could or should be.

For those reading and on the fence on a neighborhood associations worth - it's what you make of it. As hokey as it sounds you can be the change that you are looking for just get involved.

Most that think they are following Robert's Rules are not. Robert's requires that you make a decision on idea #1 before you can discuss #2. If #1 is approved then #2 is never considered but will never be supported by those that didn't vote for it. If #1 fails then #2 is considered but those that wanted #1 will never support #2, #3...

It is incorrect to think the only way to run a meeting is with some version of Robert's Rules. Pick up a copy of 'Breaking Robert's Rules: The New Way to Run Your Meeting, Build Consensus, and Get Results' by Lawrence E. Susskind & Jeffrey L. Cruikshank to see a better way to conduct meetings that build consensus decisions.

I agree that RROO can be archiac in dealing with really simple operational aspects of your meeting but it is provides a framework to go off of.

As to your idea scenario unfolding in that manner here is a real simple answer. Problem A has two ideas - the people with idea #1 and idea #2. Both ideas can be brought up under new business but tabled by membership or board and brought up for discussion at the next meeting. This way both were brought up and not discussed ad nauseum. This gives the membership time to grouse it over for the month and for both people to get others on board with their idea before the next meeting. It also allows the board to set time limits and parameters of what needs to be accomplished at the next meeting.

There will always be folks that never see eye to eye on any issue. As a baord you have to find a nice balance between letting these folks vent and moving the meetings along and letting them be productive. While I am loathe to listen to someone spout about how they hate the Forestry department for 20 minutes I do know that if you cut them off too early or are pithy towards them that reflects poorly on your group and gives the impression to others that you are a dictator (i say this with experience..very painful experience)

I still disagree with you steve - sorry man I'm a RROO guy and without it I would have lost an entire neighborhood association on more than one occasion.

Again, a neighborhood association is what you make of it. I chose to be proactive and headstrong and we flourshied but I did manage to leave some collateral damage in my wake unfortunately

I know RRoO very well and agree it is a framework and can be effective. More often than not I see the rules butchered because they are not understood or they are inconvenient. But there are other frameworks out there that I think can be more effective.

I first became involved with my neighborhood association in Denver 1988 or 1989, when I volunteered to "help" on the newsletter; within a couple of years I was president. All the points made so far are valid - most people only get interested when there's a "hot" issue, and many meetings only attract the dedicated and/or the wonks. And I agree, there's liitle need for strict adherence to Robert's Rules in most cases, but they do offer a framework for taking a more-formal position once consensus is reached on an issue.

Where Denver differs from St. Louis is that they have an ordinance for formally registering neighborhood associations (RNO's), that grants them a certain level of legitimacy and requires many city departments to actually notify them of things that could affect the neighborhood (zoning changes, requests for variances, requests for liquor licenses, changes to parks, highway projects, new developments, etc, etc.). In practice, this has evolved into most city council members expecting a position from the RNO's on many issues. The challenge is that the registration side has fairly loose requirements, with self-selected boundaries and no specific membership or meeting requirements, which results in overlapping boundaries and "phantom" groups, where a few people claim to represent the interests of the larger neighborhood. In most cases, the city officials know who actually represents the larger numbers, but for residents and people interested in doing something in the neighborhood, it creates some real confusion.

Denver also has a very active and respected organization called Inter Neighborhood Cooperation (INC) that acts as an umbrella organization for the RNO's. They offer training and mentorship to new organizations and new leaders and helps create a consensus on citywide issues. Much like at-large aldermen versus ward-based ones, they have a different (and usually more-experienced) perspective on both how to get things done and how local issues can have citywide impact. I'm not aware of a similar organization here; I'm guessing it's because of the tradition of strong, ward-based politics limits the power that any NO could expect to exercise, but one could still be a great resource.

Still, I agree with Josh. I go to the quarterly meetings of my NO here and will probably get more involved, eventually (after 15 years of increasing involvement in Denver, a break was in order). I'm also a strong believer in the bumper sticker on my truck - "Get Involved - The World Is Run By Those Who Show Up!"

Great topic, Steve.

I completely agree on running the meetings in a way that makes sense, rather than using a system most do not understand. People try to use Robert's because...it's always been done that way! Makes for horrible meetings.

Neighborhood meetings should foster great neighbors and great neighborhoods. Knowing your neighbors is half the battle when it comes to keeping crime down and caring for communal space.

OT: It's annoying that you can't see how many comments a post has from the main page.

I've put in a help request to figure out how to display the number of comments.

No matter what the topic, 20% of the people will disagree and will seem like they are the majority. Don't count on it. Negative people feast on these things.