Chevy Tahoe Driver Crosses the Line, In More Ways Than One
Today while taking pictures of the accident involving a police car and a private vehicle (see prior post) I ended up crossing Chippewa twice, both times using the pedestrian crosswalk at Hampton. When crossing from the NE corner back to the SE corner I waited through the Hampton left turn arrows for the signal to cross. However, a big black Chevy Tahoe in the left turn lane (to southbound Hampton) was over the stop line as well as being into the cross walk area.
As I walked in front of the 5,200 lb+ vehicle I sorta gave the driver, who was talking on her cell phone, a disapproving look. Once safely across the street and on the sidewalk I yelled back something like, “The stop line is five feet back.” Before I explain the rest I want to talk about the above image. The white pickup in the far right lane waited back behind the stop line as I crossed the crosswalk. It was only once I was through that the white truck pulled forward to see about making a right turn on red. That driver had to pull forward more than usual to be able to see past the black Tahoe.
Ok, back to the driver in the Tahoe. So I yelled to her that the stop line was back about five feet. Well, she starts screaming at me and everything was f-this and f-that. I was on foot and walking back along Chippewa to my scooter up near the entrance of the Hampton Village shopping center. As you can see, she was in the left turn lane. By the time I reached my scooter she had pulled into the back of the McDonald’s and began cursing at me again — finally exiting her vehicle and cursing up a storm while calling me fat (ok, technically true). I was a bit concerned for my personal safety at this point but I was unable to get the attention of the police across the street, all the while she tells me she is the wife of a police officer. I indicated she had technically run a red light by being over the stop line (also technically true). Timing was on my side as the KSDK camerawoman in the area for the police car accident got most of this woman’s tyraid on camera.
This woman had no reason to be this far forward into the crosswalk. Many times I’ve seen drivers realize they are too far forward and blocking pedestrians, get embarrased and back up a bit. They’d apologetically wave and smile and that would be the end of it. In this case the woman has plenty of room behind her to back up a bit but instead of accepting her mistake when pointed out she resorts to intimidating a pedestrian. Staying back behind the stop line makes intersections safer for pedestrians as well as other drivers who may find her forward position challenging when trying to turn left from southbound Hampton onto eastbound Chippewa.
Interestingly this intersection has newer signals with video enforcement, I’ll be curious to see what these cameras caught if anything. When I left the area I zig zagged through the residential neighborhoods just in case she tried to track me down on Chippewa.
UPDATE 6/17/2007 @ 3:45pm:
I got a few seconds of video as the driver was screaming at me from the McDonald’s parking lot (can’t tell a word she is saying), then she gets out to come towards me. Unfortunately, I turned off the camera (KSDK got her words after this point). Well, here is the bit that I got:
This is a fairly common occurrence, Steve. I’ve done it several times. Granted, I always back up if I see a pedestrian (when possible). Still, it’s nothing to really give a huge stink eye to in my opinion.
Steve, I’m not seeing video up there. It’s a shame too, because people in the wrong getting totally indignant/unhinged like that are completely hilarious!
Steve,
In general I think that if you’re looking for a fight you can find one. It looks like you’ve done just that. Of course technically you were right, but if we all went around picking fights because we’re “technically” right the world would be a worse place – in my view. Again, I don’t think you’re wrong, but some people can’t be helped.
At least on my PC, I’ve still got a whole lotta nothing on any and all browsers. Firefox has a small bit of empty space, IE’s got a big box with an X, and the aesthetically-pleasing but memory-intensive new Windows version of Safari just has a YouTube video-sized blank space.
Better that she stopped in the crosswalk than zoomed through the end of a yellow (or a red). This is quite common, especially when yellows are short.
Glad that the two of you could exchange views. I often yell at bicyclists for backing up traffic on busy streets and refusing to obey stop signs.
Do you have a clear shot of her license plate? Call Internal Affairs and tell them the wife of the office related to this suburban assault vehicle is using her marital status as a badge to verbally assault pedestrians.
wow, you shake a bee’s nest and you’re surprised when a queen bee comes out pissed? Though I agree she shouldn’t have been over the line but yelling at her didn’t solve the problem. You were self-righteous first and then she retaliated and you’re surprised/miffed/worried?
“I often yell at bicyclists for backing up traffic on busy streets …”
well then you and the woman in the tahoe should get together for tea and waste your breath. byciclists have no obligation to move for you.
Well, I would just like to point out with the bicyclists who now seem to be coming out of the woodwork these days, with their special little helmets and special stretchy pants and special stretchy logo’ed shirts and all – I HAVE NOT SEEN A SINGLE ONE STOP AT ***ANY** STOP SIGNS, traffic signals, or when in a group riding single-file as they should. Esp. along Midland Ave I get them all the time 2 and 3 abreast, and blowing ALL the stop signs and holding up traffic.
OTOH…
As for A$$hole cagers on Chippewa today – I was out on a group scooter ride up by Ted Drews when some grade-A dipshit changed lanes directly into 3 scooters ahead of my wife and I, forcing them into a yellow cross-hatched area that if a few yards back would have forced them into ONCOMING traffic. And no, he “did not see them” we were going slow up to a red light and he slowly and forcfully forced his way in intentionally as we watched. If my wife wasn’t on the bike with me I’d have kicked his door in or the side view mirror off.
So Steve, I don’t care what these responders say – this woman was in the wrong, completely, and this kind of vehicular aggression cannot be tolerated. – and I would have laughed in her face over the “wife of a police officer” line. what BS! That’s like someone saying they’re a black-belt or something. ha!
/End Rant
Hey StL_Stadroller – interesting perspective – why come down hard on cyclists and then rant about cagers?! Scooter riders aren’t much more than glorified cyclists, dealing with the same sh*t as us human-powered riders, from a minority of cagers out there. If we all got past the idea that the world is “all about me”, maybe it would be a better place for all of us. And as an aggressive pedestrian, I totally agree with Steve – Tahoe mama deserved the “education” she received.
I don’t blame you at all for your comments at the Tahoe Twit. So what if she’s married to a cop. Does that mean she shouldn’t obey any of the laws?
I guess I’m in the minority of drivers that respect the cross walk and cyclists.
BTW I thought that was you yesterday taking pictures.
Why is respect for civility and particularly law enforcement declining so rapidly? This seemingly insignificant story gives insight into both and what the “car culture” has done to public discourse.
Even a wife of a cop feels emboldened enough to use her partner as a threat. Imagine what type of person thinks this way and the reasons why such an individual believes that they are so empowered. The message is clear: those in law enforcement are privileged and will use their power for personal benefit and gain.
This video also brings to mind that as a society we have become so auto-dependent that we excuse reckless driving and other negative behaviors. In addition, it illustrates how pedestrians are treated with less respect and how large vehicles create additional risks from their size alone. The suburbanization of cities is creating incivility and ugliness on a grand scale. Our roads are being designed not for people but for autos and trucks. The issues concerning public health and safety are being sacrificed to our own demise.
For every cyclist who fails to make a full stop at a stop sign, I will see 100 cars doing the same. But a 5200 pound car running a stop is an enormous risk to society while a cyclist is not. Cars kill approximately 40,000 people in this country every year and of course even more are seriously injured. How many people are killed by irresponsible cyclists? To see how are public assets are mismanaged, how laws are used unfairly, and how law enforcement is used to harass some while ignoring more serious risks see:
http://www.sfpartyparty.com/?p=1393
Jim, I think you may have just proven my point – cagers not considering scooters as “real” motor-vehicles, same as a motorcycle and just as you say “glorified bicycles”. As if that would excuse behavior like forcing someone out of their lane wether bicycle or scooter.
The difference being of course that scooter riders all seem to understand that they are to obey all the traffic laws. Whereas the overwhelming majority of the bicyclists that I see, seem to think that stop signs and such do not apply to them.
Stadtroller,
I hear you on the cyclists not obeying traffic laws, however traffic laws are quite auto specific and it is often safer for a cyclist with plain view of an intersection to continue pedaling straight through than stop. As for riding 2 or 3 across, as long as there is more than one traffic lane in the direction the cyclist is traveling it is perfectly legal and much safer for them to “Take the lane.” The idea is faster traffic can always go around.
I agree with Jan.
Why does ANYONE feel they are above the law.
I get so irritated when someone gets a ticket..then runs to a “friend” to have it “fixed”.
If you broke the law, then pay the consequences.
In this case the Tahoe lady was definitely in the wrong. Over driving the stop could be an accident. That I don’t fault her on. What I fault her on is everything from that point on.
1. Not trying to back up when she realized that she had over driven the line.
2. Not apologizing when it was noted by someone else.
3. Creating an issue with the person who was in the right.
4. Verbally assaulting someone and discriminating against them because they aren’t “thin”. In this same vein of thinking…had the roles been reversed and it has been stated that she were a black female, Lord knows that a lawyer would have already been called and this morning the pedestrian would have gotten letter.
5. The driver threaten to physically assault the pedestrian (Steve) by following him.
I’m sure that there are several more things that could be cited in this case.
I personally have been on the pedestrian side when it comes to someone parking.
In my case…individuals have been known to park on my block, then walk to another block. I simply asked the individual to please park on the block where he was visiting. He came back with a tirade of comments that I was disrespecting him, it was a public street, etc.
I simply informed him that the residents of the street needed a place to park and if he were visiting, then the residents he was visiting should accommodate him with their parking allocation.
Unfortunately, it didn’t help that I was white, he was black.
I don’t want to get into a long thread, but I do feel that there are a LOT of people in the world today who only care how actions of others affect them…and never how their actions affect those around them.
Bill.
Note to Steve and everybody telling him he was right to tell the lady off:
Some 20 years ago I remember coming home from work and telling my husband about the j-off who had cut me off in traffic and how I’d chased him down, given him the finger, yelled at him. Very tough stuff. My husband happened to be reading the paper while I regaled him with this adrenaline-soaked tale. He immediately began to read aloud–he was looking at a story from California. A man had stabbed a woman 18 times for bumping into him while they rode the bus (yes, rode a bus in California). He had previously been a mental patient. She was dead. No good outcomes here.
The point of the story is that there are crazy people, angry people, amped-up crack-heads, all kinds of people and we can’t just tell who they are. And Steve, while there have been days where I wanted to throttle you myself, the truth is that I want you safe.
So don’t get into unnecessary arguments with strangers. People really do crazy things. They really do bring guns to knife fights. If some whack-job takes you down or out, who is going to fill your role?
from a concerned stranger
Adam, while bicyclists may not have a legal obligation to make way for my car, they have a moral obligation not to back up traffic on a street like, say, Lindell or Clayton road. It’s simply inconsiderate.
I think Steve should be commended for his action, not derided as “self righteous” or spoiling for a fight. I walk a lot in the city, particularly in my S. Grand neighborhood, and I get sick and tired of the menacing incivility of some motorists. A guy nearly ran me down in front of Jay’s a couple months ago at that light everyone hates to stop for. I actually jumped out of the way to avoid getting a bumper in the shins. My response was far more vehement than Steve’s, involving the central digit of both hands and some rather harsh language I will not record here. My pique was exacerbated by the dude’s smug and brazen smirk over what he had done. What blew my mind was that he then proceeded to pull over with a squeal of adolescent rubber and LEAP from his vehicle to the sidewalk, practically convulsed in a slobbering fit of racial invective and elaborate, obscene threats that ran together like a stream of consciousness invocation of demons. Though I’m glad I didn’t put a hand on him, I was still pretty hot, and advised him nose to nose that it would be harder for him to run people over in the street if he was confined to a wheelchair.
The most striking thing was his bewilderment that I was not scared to death of him. Pure ASTONISHMENT. It seemed to utterly deflate his self-righteous indignation. He abruptly dummied up, got in his car and drove away, bewildered, a fool and a menace with a driver’s license…presumably.
I wondered: how often does he roll around town behaving that way? Every day? Everywhere he goes? Criminal disregard for pedestrians is idiotic and unnecessary and seems a perennial problem.
People quickly become virtually inhuman when they’re behind a steering wheel. Being anonymous with great power in hand brings out the driver’s true character…havoc can be created without accountability. With more tinted windows and bigger vehicles, drivers have become more aggressive and daring…almost monster-like. Like in the movie The Mask, the inconsiderate become a growing and dangerous menace.
Moral obligation broken by cyclists? How absurd when compared to the destruction caused by autos everyday including air pollution, noise, death, health risks, strained public budgets,…. The addicition to oil and its concommitant wastes and destruction are being fueld by foolish thinking and irresponsible behavior. Some are so addicted and confused that they cannot see the obvious lack of consideration created everyday in every way by auto-dependency. Traffic is caused by cars not bikes.
In NYC pedestrians bang on the hood of the auto that is in the way of the walkway. I do the same in Saint Louis as I do in New York.
Bill, I would disagree about approaching the man about having to park on the block in which he was visiting. First, you can park where ever you would like as long as you’re obeying the law. There is no law telling you that you have to park as close as possible to your destination. I understand you weren’t telling him that what he was doing was illegal, rather a lesson in general courtesy, but I say let people live and behave however they want as long as they are not fringing upon the natural rights of others. The public street is the property of all citizens in good standing.
Second, some people love to get a stretch of the legs…if I couldn’t walk places and had to be delivered door to door, I would hate life.
I hate to rant but St Louis drivers are horrible about stopping at the stripe. I live near the incident above and nearly every light has an offender of that rule. Chippewa and Kingshighway is worse. These drivers ignore every attempt by traffic engineers to protect them and other drivers and simply pull forward (at a red f’ing turn arrow) as far as they can as if it will profit them somehow. It makes it more difficult to turn into the lane to their left and forces people turning right to violate the intersection in order to see oncoming traffic. Staying in lanes and stopping at the designated line are my biggest St Louis driver pet peeves. Yeah, I don’t stop completely at stop signs. Feel free to yell at me too.
BTW, you should correct (or yell) at these people. Just be prepared to be bigger and madder than they are. Maybe if they started ticketing people for being over the line with those photo enforcement cameras people would stay back. A few people have stated that maybe they couldn’t stop in time. In that case I believe you were probably speeding or not paying attention while approaching an intersection. Bad idea in either case. The speed limit down Chippewa from Kingshighway to Hampton is 30 mph. No excuse not to either make the light or stop in time 🙂
“I would just like to point out with the bicyclists who now seem to be coming out of the woodwork these days, with their special little helmets and special stretchy pants and special stretchy logo’ed shirts and all – I HAVE NOT SEEN A SINGLE ONE STOP AT ***ANY** STOP SIGNS”
Give me a break Stl_Stadroller. The way you phrased this you must really have something against bike riders. It sounds a little like the “cager” in the Tahoe screaming obsenities at Steve. Hmm, lets see. With gas prices at all time highs and our environment going to shit – I for one am glad to hear that you think cyclists are coming out of the woodwork. As a scooter owner/driver I would think you would appreciate the plight of most cyclists today. Midland is a great street to ride down – its wide, and further west, two lanes with big a shoulder. A biker’s dream street from a safety standpoint. I cycle on it often. I stop at every signal and sign, and most that I see cycling on the street do as well. Yet, cars, even though they have another lane to merge into, whiz by you so close that if feels like they have actually touched you. I’ve been honked at and yelled at on may occasions despite obeying the traffic laws. Sorry that I made you make the extra effort to change lanes or got you to your final destination 3 or 4 seconds later than you would have had I not been cycling on the road.
And Craig, “a moral obligation not to back up traffic on a street like, say, Lindell or Clayton road. It’s simply inconsiderate.” What are you talking about. Does the city or county have a moral obligation to you not to allow pedestrians to cross the street, or not to put up speed limit signs, stop signs, or traffic signal, all so you can get to your destination a few seconds faster. What is simply inconsiderate is your atttidude that a cyclist, whether for pleasure, to get to work or the store has some moral obligation to you while your driving down any street, whether its clayton, lindell or midland. The cyclist has a legal obligation to follow the rules of the road as you do in your car. He /she owes you no moral obligation. One would hope that he/she would be considerate of those she/he is sharing the road with, just like that cyclist would hope car drivers would be considerate to him/her.
“Give me a break Stl_Stadroller. The way you phrased this you must really have something against bike riders”
Well, I *do* sort of feel like these people never had parents to tell them not to play with their toys in the street, HOWEVER, as a motorcyclist and scooterist, I *DO* in fact give cyclists a VERY wide berth when passing, slow down and changes lanes (completely) when passing – if possible, and actively watch for them on the road. I personally don’t care for bicycling, but do respect their right to the road, and have no problems with the ones who respect mine.
The problem of course is that the vast mojority – from my perspective – are the ninnies in their tights (requently on Midland) which as you know is a lovely wide road, 4 lanes in many places, and where it narrows has a LARGE shoulder – which many speeding cages like to use as a passing lane. Yet I STILL wind up behind the cyclists – 3 and 4 abreast (illegal) in the traffic lane, and not using the shoulder/bicycle lane, blowing all the stops, etc.
In a different location this weekend – Morganford from Chippewa to Arsenal – I rode my scooter along side a bicyclist who blew EVERY stop, I would stop, look proceede, then catch up and pass the cyclist, only for him to blow by me through the next stop sign, and this repeated all the way to Arsenal where Mr. Special cyclist then stopped to compliment my scooter. When I asked him if he ever got a ticket for running all those stop sign he gave me a dirty look and rode off (again, running the stop at Arsenal).
So, that’s just my experience, I may be wrong, but stereotypes exist for a reason eh.
“Adam, while bicyclists may not have a legal obligation to make way for my car, they have a moral obligation not to back up traffic on a street like, say, Lindell or Clayton road. It’s simply inconsiderate.”
moral obligation? that’s pretty funny. where’s your moral obligation? how about this one: patience is a virtue. i think you’re confusing your sense of entitlement with their obligation. their only obligation is to obey traffic laws, which gives them the right to take the lane when necessary. sure, some bikers don’t obey traffic laws. and i’ll bet you there are MANY MANY MORE drivers who regularly break traffic laws.
Try crossing that signal with a child in toe. I usually just ask them to back the f*** up so I can walk with my daughter across the street. It never ceases to amaze me that people could care less about folks trying to cross the crosswalk with a child or just to get across. Thats definetly the case over on Kingshighway or Union
As far as the incident is concerned go ahead and do what you think is necessary and for the greater good.
I will again say…common courtesy when it comes to everyone having to live in the same space.
If you OWN the space, then you can do with what you want…as long as it doesn’t imped upon another persons space.
When I spoke about people parking on one block and walking to the next I was not telling the man, as it has been pointed out, that he was in the wrong. BUT, when there is ample parking not only within easy walking distance to the house th visitor went to, but right in front of the house..then I have to stand up for the residents on my block.
Also, when the individual involved is a known undesirable and doesn’t live in the neighborhood.
Any of you who wish to sit on my front stoop on a Friday and/or Saturday night to see the type of individual I’m talking about, you are invited. I’ll even provide the water. But, bring your cell phones and have 911 on speed dial.
Now, back to the thread of this blog.
When I used the example of the person parking and not even knowing anyone on the block, this was an example of the inconsiderate behavior of many people today. The type of person that only cares how actions around them affect them.
If a driver OWNS the space beyond the white strip, then they can pull up, as long as they don’t impede the walkway. But, I’ve never heard the space between the white line and walkway being owned by any particular individual.
People are in to much of a hurry these days. Just as Josh mentioned about having a child in tow… People won’t remain stopped even if they have the green light when a child is in the walkway, let alone when there are adults in the walkway. And those adults are their legally as the walk signal is barely long enough to get ½ way across the road.
It doesn’t matter who, what color, background. The majority of drivers and people in general are too busy being on cell phones, worried about e-mail…or even the old age issue of “keeping up with the Jones”.
The Vatican has just published its ten commandments for motorists: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,2106621,00.html
Commandment 2: The road shall be for you a means of communion between people and not of mortal harm.
I wonder what the Tahoe drive and Steve would make of the opportunity to reconcile (per commandment 8).
I don’t really understand your issues with tights and helmets. They’re comfortable, allow a free range of movement while pedaling, and keep cyclist from getting their cuffs caught in the chain.
Personally, I just enjoy how any discussion about driving on this blog evolves into a self-righteous tirade on those wacky cyclists and how they have no regard for the law.
Totally thought of this post when I came across this tidbit.
http://greencycles.blogspot.com/2007/06/overview.html
Unless you live on a private street, city streets belong to the public, not the adjacent property owner! It’s first come, first served. Yes, it’s considerate to not park in front of someone’s house, but there are certainly no laws saying you can’t park there (unless it’s “No Parking” for everyone, INCLUDING the property owner!). If you want a private parking space, build or buy your own, but don’t expect to put dibs on public property. The only exception I can see to this is post-blizzard – if you dig it out, you should “own” it until the snow melts . . .
Consider these situations: a neighbor with a collection of old rusty vehicles who lives a block away decides to park these licensed vehicles in front of your house but not in front of his due to their unsightlyness. The homeowner who has always maintained his property in an attractive manner now has to see these vehicles out his living room window, tell his guest that they have to park a block away, and doesn’t get his side of the street cleaned when the streetcleaner comes by once a week. In the middle of the night, the collector moves his cars between his garage and the area in front of the nice home in order to paint different sections of the vehicles. All perfectly legal and acceptable here as our standards have become so low and other problems dominate.
In regards to Patrick’s June 18th post. I once witnessed three separate people walk across the hood of a car stopped in a crosswalk in the Bronx. I was not sure that they were not in on it together. But it was an impressive sight and I think of it everytime that I approach a white stripe.
Don’t block the box!!!