Recall of Ald. Florida Has Begun!
Last night, following the Gravois Park Neighborhood Association Meeting, residents of the 15th ward began signing a petition to recall Ald. Jennifer Florida. Ald. Florida was not present at the meeting where residents shared their displeasure over the proposed relocation of a McDonald’s to their neighborhood.
To be successful a total of 1,409 signatures of current 15th Ward registered voters will need to be collected. This represents 20% of the registered voters in the ward as of the last Mayoral election held in April 2005. Only 615 voters cast ballots for Florida in April 2005.
I will be checking with the organizers periodically to report the when and where on how to assist with the recall effort.
– Steve
Where do I sign?
Any registered voter in the 15th ward can sign. We have a list of all registered voters in the ward and will be going to their houses. There may also be some times when we are out other places collecting signatures. Stay tuned.
If Pyramid had built the promised development, would we be in this “recall Florida frenzy”? If the neighborhood group were a little more pro-active (trying to lure good development at ALL times) instead of reactive, would we be discussing this recall topic?
I think Florida is only playing the cards that were dealt. Because Pyramid (shitty company) didn’t follow through with their development promises we are in this situation.
I think the “frenzy” should be focused at PYRAMID not necessarily at Florida!
Please know that I think Florida, based on all the information received, deserves to be recalled.
But you (recall frenzy people) need to get at the root problem – Pyramid. If a good, honest developer would have came forward to develop on the future mcdonald’s site (and it will be built) then we would be talking about Overland instead. Florida is forced to work with Pyramid because Pyramid runs the show!
Florida – machine
GPNA – machine, outdated
Pyramid – machine operator
Stop Pyramid from irresponsible development.
[REPLY – Please elaborate on how to stop Pyramid? They give major contributions to Ald. Florida and she goes to batt for them. If you can suggest a way to stop Pyramid other than recalling Florida I’d love to hear it.
As for the neighborhood group, I don’t think it is their responsibility to seek out development proposals for privately owned land. They have, as I understand it, been trying to get Pyramid to complete prior promises. Volunteer residents can only be expected to do so much.
I agree that Pyramid is largely at fault here. They simply don’t seem to care and they’ve handed out enough contributions that nobody else seeems to care. – SLP]
Alderwoman Florida is certainly only part of the problem. The rest of the blame lies with Mayor Slay, Pyramid, and an incompetant restaurant franchisee.
The fact remains that Ald. Florida has represented and supported this project. She has chosen to not engage the neighborhood residents numerous times. When confronted, she comes back with a vague statement that usually includes the SSN Bank building. If she wanted to avoid the recall she could have opposed the project. Pyramind and Mayor Slay may run the show, but the residents of the city own it.
Come on! How long are we going to allow her to rest on on good development, while she pollutes the rest of the area with mediocrity.
A good way to address corporations is to deal with the elected officials who act as their spokespersons. It is far easier to recall an elected official than to take on a corporation directly.
If we send the message to Pyramid that we want development which does not alienate the neighborhood, then they will fall in line. The only way to do this is through the political system.
Corporations act on the basis of profit. If we make these actions too expensive, then they will change.
E and A must approve all city $$$ going to Pyramid. The mayor is only one vote. Florida is a bit player.
I am not a fan of Florida, Pyramid or the machine which seems to run the Missouri Democratic Party but I am noting here that our reaction could be as volatile and irresponsible as what Florida and Pyramid are doing.
We are quick to point the blame in a variety of directions but shouldn’t we take some responsibility for this??
Consider that no one opposed Jennifer Florida in the last election and that only 615 people came out to vote for her. That was a choice we made. WE chose not to run against her and WE chose not to vote for her. I suggest this means we were passively irresponsibility. Now we want to recall her because she is acting irresponsibly and unethical? We knew who she was the 2nd term because we saw how she was the 1st.
It’s like choosing to play Monopoly with someone… you know how they play and yet you still choose to play with them. Then, you don’t like how the game is going so you flip the board and quit.
Please, let’s think about what it is we are doing. Should we follow through with this recall, I believe we will be undermining our democratic process as much as Jennifer, Pyramid and this political machine are by their own actions.
I believe when we start taking responsibility for the outcomes in our city, we will find ourselves on a different and hopefully better path.
Marti Frumhoff
[REPLY – Marti, read you last setence again, “I believe when we start taking responsibility for the outcomes in our city, we will find ourselves on a different and hopefully better path.” That is entirely what this recall is about. Citizens are standing up and taking responsibility for outcomes. Citizens are following the process for seeking change. How can that possibly be bad for democracy?
Love the Monopoly analogy but what we’ve got are other players that when faced with losing simply goes back to the game maker and gets the rules changed to suit them. The game rules in this case say no drive-thru.
Citizens coming together to recall an elected official that is not representing the best interests of her ward or the city at large is the most democratic thing I can think of save for actaully running for office. – SLP]
Steve, I agree with you about the recall possibly being a way we are taking responsibility but I don’t want to see this let us off the hook for making the passive choice we made here. And, I do believe it is possible to be irresponsible and reactionary with the tools we have such as I believe is possibly the case with this particular recall. Marti
[REPLY Yes, citizens can be irresponsible and reactionary. But, I’d argue that our elected officials can be so as well. In this case I think Jennifer Florida is acting highly irresponsible from a planning perspective and frankly is being reactionary to contributions received from Pyramid.
Yes, the 15th ward was passive in the last election by not fielding a challenger. Does this mean that because they were uninvolved last year that they must wait until 2009? Of course not. Timing is critical and if 20% of those elected decide now is the time to take responsibiltity and participate in democracy who are we to stand in the way? – SLP]
Politicians can’t make development happen (see Sunset Hills). Politicians can help steer development, but have limited powers (despite what many may think) to truly “make it happen”. It’s all about making money, people. Pyramid may be a “shitty developer” and over-promised and under-delivered, but at least they’re trying to make something happen there. The same goes for the McDonald’s franchisee – at least he’s trying to stay in the area. The Burger King guy simply shut down, leaving another vacant store and empty parking lot.
This is business people – if you can’t make money, you leave. There are many little reasons (and no one big one) that retail continues to struggle along both Grand and Gravois – perceived (?) better options elsewhere, no “anchors” or “destination businesses” to draw shoppers from outside the neighborhood, perceptions (fair and unfair) about crime, aging businesses and infrastructure, limited / lower disposable incomes, the cost of borrowing, taxes, permits, etc., etc. Bottom line, the area is what it is. Yes, the alderman and the neighborhood groups should continue to keep pushing (hard!) to improve the area, keep existing businesses and to attract new ones, but there’s a limit to what any for-profit business will spend to open their doors. If the numbers don’t make sense, nothing will happen / businesses will leave.
I agree with Marti. To a certain extent, Ald. Florida has to “work with the hand she was dealt”. If I were her, I’d also be more inclined to try and keep an existing business than to try and bring a new one in, even if it means modifying existing plans and agreements. I also continue to have big problems with the knee-jerk reaction to development disputes to start a recall campaign. We continue to bemoan the fact that our elected officials aren’t doing a good job, but how can we expect them to if they’re spending a big chunk of their time on both getting elected and then staying in office for their entire term? Better to develop “good” candidates and get them elected the next time around. Bigger picture, if the threat of recall were substantially reduced, maybe we’d see a Board of Alderman more willing to step outside their safety zone and actually legislate?! As it is now, there’s a lot of logic with taking the “safe” path on every issue and in maintianing aldemanic courtesy . . .
[REPLY As always Jim I value your participation and perspectives. But, as is often the case, I disagree.
First, Pyramid has had years to make something happen at the old Sear site. Years. Just as they have had years to finish the houses in Keystone.
Florida rather than soliciting residents and adjacent Ald. Schmid for a joint effort to evaluate the area repeatedly told citizens the McDonald’s would not go on the Sears site while alll along that is what was being discussed in the back rooms.
The McDonald’s does not have to leave. They can rebuild on their current site. Does it present a few challenge? Yes. Similarly, if Pyramid sees a need for senior housing and street-level retail why not build that on the old Sears site? Will seniors not rent a unit there just as they would a block away? You’d think the slightly quieter corner on Winnebego would be a bonus.
Sound Grand has issues, no doubt. The blighting plan 10 years ago was a start but when redistricting happened the bulk of Grand changed to a single Ward, Florida’s. If anyone is being reactionary it is her. Pyramid dangles a carrot saying we’ll built this great projet (yet to be seen) if we can move the McDonald’s over to this parcel we’ve abandoned for years. Where is her pro-active leadership and guiding the area and building community support to make positive changes?
If Florida can deal with the hand she was dealt with crappy development then she can deal with the hand dealt with a recall.
To argue that citizens should not stand up and have their voice heard is proposterous.
Your last points are just way off base. Aldermen do not take the safe route out of fear of recall. That is completely opposite of the truth. They are kings of their little 1/28th of the city and rule accordingly. They also know all the other little kings will back them up when they want to make a poor reactionary decision in their kingdom. Fear of recall just is not something they consider. If anything, that fear needs to be placed squarly in front of each and every one of them. – SLP]
Granted, Florida has certainly shown arrogance by ramming this project through the Planning Commission with minimal public notice (posted agenda in 1015 Locust lobby), deceptively calling the site design (the most suburban fast food layout yet in the City) “urban” and “pedestrian friendly,” hiding these plans from the Gravois Park neighborhood (where the site is located), telling Alderman Schmid (who represents most of Gravois Park) that this development would happen whether he likes or not, and withdrawing her support as a co-sponsor of Schmid’s car-noise bill as retribution for his violation of aldermanic courtesy, despite this site having a longer history being in Schmid’s former 10th ward boundaries than Florida’s recently redrawn 15th.
However, I now fear that those “grassroots urbanists” aligned with this recall risk no longer being known as a group working for denser, pedestrian-oriented developments across our City (the OPUS tower in the CWE being the most publicized thus far), but rather now known simply as those “young punk bloggers pushing for Florida’s recall.” Sure, many within the 15th may be upset with Florida, but Patterson, French and Duckworth, all non-15th ward residents, have become the face of the recall.
Which begs the question, how could this “nuclear option” been avoided? In a previous post, I myself was feeling pessimistic and regrettably agreed with another poster that this issue would likely lead to a recall, but I’m still surprised how quickly it ended up with what normally should be the last resort. Was there any direct communication (not blog posts) with Florida offering alternative development scenarios or compromises? Now that the recall effort has begun, can we realistically even expect either side to now compromise?
[REPLY – Neither myself, Antonio French or Doug Duckworth obtained the list of 15th Ward voters. We did not prepare the petition. We did not seek out the 15th ward voters have that have already signed the petition. Doug & myself have had continual talks with those organizing the recall and we have helped spread the word. Antonio French is doing his job of reporting on various happenings all over the city. If you check out his site you’ll see he covers many topics.
But to your question of could this have been avoided? Yes, it most certainly could have. How? Simple. Florida could have told area residents the truth back in 2004 that plans were being made to relocate the McDonald’s. But had she done that it might have led to a challenger in 2005… So, she waited until 2006 just before a hearing. It could have been avoided by working together to resolve differences but instead I’ve witnessed Florida screaming at citizens saying, “you can’t get everything you want.” I know of numerous emails and phone calls between others and Florida on this issue. She has dug in her heels.
Also, I don’t represent anyone’s views except my own. I’ve argued for a more urban McDonald’s at the Sears site and Florida has given lip service to such an idea although we haven’t seen if that will be the case. But, I agree with the Gravois Park residents that we should not be placing such a detraction next to homes that has not been subject to that prior.
The recall is happening so quickly because frankly it has to. Having the recall after the building permit is issued and the construction begins kinda defeats the purpose don’t you think? Then the arguement would be, “oh you are just sore losers, why didn’t you do something before it was all finalized.” – SLP]
Just because no one opposed Florida in the last election is no excuse to let her trample over the residents in favor of companies who contributed to her campaign.
I don’t understand the logic of Marti and a few of the others on here. Florida simply refuses to listen to residents and lies to their faces at public meetings. Explain to me how this is good again? Okay, I know, “it’s not good….” then what are we do to?
I don’t understand these arguments about how recalling her is anti-democracy! You have no way to really know what an elected official is going to do once they’re in office, you may vote for them thinking they will represent you and your ward/city/state/country… but if they get into office and fail to do so are we supposed to say “Oh, I guess I had poor judgement, the only thing I can do is take this as punishment for my poor judgement?” It’s not the voters fault that the official misled them. And I just think these “would’ve, could’ve, should’ve” arguments supporting inaction are pointless and illogical.
Now the residents are seeing the true value of the democratic process… Officials are elected to represent US, the citizens, neighbors, the people. When they fail to do their job or even LISTEN to the people and they are supposed to represent and work with them, they trample democracy. Are we just supposed to accept that because “we voted for them?”
Finally, as to your anti-democracy argument… let’s, for the sake of argument, say that many residents think Florida shouldn’t be recalled… well then this is the time for you to get off the couch and get involved! That is what democracy is about, right? And if your efforts fail and the person that replaces Florida fails to meet your expectations, then maybe you should start communicating that with them. And if more people feel like you do, and they still don’t try to work with you… then maybe you should get them out of office. If 20% of registered voters want her recalled and 80% want her to stay… then maybe the 80% should go vote.
We as citizens should be in control of our government, not the other way around. That’s the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship. If you made a bad choice and voted for Florida (which couldn’t have been a “choice” at all since no one ran against her, at least the residents VOTED anyway) then correct that choice. If you want to see changes in your ward, then run in the campaign to replace her.
Anyway, I’m done. I just don’t understand how doing nothing has any relation to the democratic process. Accept responsibility and do nothing, or accept responsibility and do something. One of those two statements makes no sense.
Antonio French is not involved with the recall, he is a reporter.
We are not 15th ward residents, however we are unhappy with the direction that some political leaders are taking the city.
Density is one issue, and this is not why I am involved.
The residents in Keystone are being alienated; if you have a conversation with them, this is apparent. Were they consulted about this development, when it directly affects them? No. Have we told Florida our concerns? Yes, on many occations, most of which are public hearings.
This is why I am involved.
What’s the point of four year terms if politicians can be ousted at any time? Why don’t we schedule elections every month? That way, anytime an elected official makes a mistake, or acts against the interests of any group, or compromises, we can hold him or her to task.
Recalls are bad ideas. They play to the politics of instant gratification. And, they never solve your problems.
[REPLY Never say never. I think the folks in the 24th Ward would disagree. They had an Alderman that was promoting destructive development projects while removing the ward from protection from Preservation Review. The new alderman acted quickly to restore the ward so that demolitions must be reviewed first.
Please have a better argument than elections every month. Why have them every four years? Why not 8, 12 or 20 years?
Here is the thing deal. Only 50% of the residents in the ward are registered to vote. Less than 10% of those registered voted for Florida, the only candidate in the race. If more than double that, 20% of registered voters, feel she is not doing a good job representing them and they seek new representation that is a good thing. That is citizens, a much larger group than voted, standing up and being counted. – SLP]
Toppers,
Not sure E&A is in this fight. It is my understanding there is no city money (tax breaks) going to this development. It appears to be an aldermanic and mayoral issue.
Who are all of these people coming out of the woodworks and defending Florida? She outright lied on multiple occasions to multiple people about multiple things. She ignores her constituents. She accepts campaign contributions that more resemble bribes from developers so that they can build whatever they want, wherever they want with no regard to how it will affect the fabric of surrounding communities. Then to top it all off, when she finally is stopped from breaking the rules she lied so hard trying to break, she goes and tries to change the rules themselves. This woman needs to be recalled plain and simple. If she’s willing to go to this extent to build a clearly unwanted McDonalds, what’s going to happen when a real project is on the line and under her command?
There may not be city money going to the project, but there is state money.
Pyramid robbed all of the affordbale housing tax credits. Cozy, cozy, Mr. Blunt, said the head of Pyramid. Sure, but what money do you have? asked the Guv-to-be. The deal went down, and the reward was reaped by Pyramid.
Jenny Florida is a convenient diversion.
Don’t forget that Pyramid gets lots of city money on other projects, and that the Sears site started out with big city bucks.
As the city’s lead stewards, E and A should be very interested in the work of Pyramid, whether or not they’re in “this” deal.
Florida may have her name tied to this deal, but she’s still a bit player. Without her fellow aldermen in line, “J-Flo” can’t do a thing.
“toppers” is right. If you blame Florida, blame every other alderman except Schmid, who publicly opposes this project. Where is “progressive” Lyda Krewson? President and creative-class-courting Jim Shrewsbury? Bauer-slayer Bill Waterhouse? “Leftist” Jeffrey Boyd?
Unless another alderman opposes the project, looks like y’all have a lot of recalls to conduct.
And don’t forget that Pyramid that you have to knock down!
Jester, Shrewsbury has already denounced the project on KDHX, as well as through a letter to the GPNA.
As for Lyda, she has already gotten enough problems with the Opus deal, and I would not expect support from her.
Even if other aldermen remain apathetic about the project, citizens who live near it are not. Lets not forget the cobblestone issue.
What is the “cobblestone issue”, and what did Shrewsbury say?
Developers are a lot like politicians (or car salesmen). They’re very good at saying what they think you want to hear in order to “get” a project. Only after they’re in control does the ugly truth (sometimes) come out. Any project is dependent on obtaining financing and tenants and/or buyers. Great dreams and great promises are no guarantee that a project will actually make sense financially in the real world of supply and demand. Politicians can craft master plans and define zoning, but hard economics will ultimately determine what gets built (or doesn’t). And this “lack” of truthfulness, especially in hindisght, is many times the result of changing financial and/or political conditions rather than outright deception. Developers are putting up their own money to move any project forward. They want to make money, hopefully lots of it, and won’t go after projects that won’t, in their minds, be successful.
Unfortunately, most politicians are more focused on the short term than on the long haul. They’d rather see something built while they’re in office than to lay the groundwork for a successor to get all the credit. Good politicians are also able to balance pragmatism with a larger vision. Unfortunately, with small wards, small salaries, aldermanic courtesy, some apparently marginally-qualified candidates and rampant voter apathy, St. Louis seems to be getting what it deserves. Like the cliche says, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
Recall is NOT the answer. Getting good people to run and getting the citizens involved IS. You can’t legislate apathy away, and you can’t have a forward-looking government if every action can generate a recall vote. Contested races on a regular basis (likely through term limits) will do more to create a positive legislative environment. All the politicians are learning now is to keep a low profile! Should the citizens be inflicted with / impacted by Ald. Florida’s actions? If only 615 voted for her and she won, YES! In her mind, much like our president’s, she has political capital to spend (and little, if any, accountability). She’s both a victim of and a skilled player in a flawed system . . .
[REPLY – A more urban zoning code would at the very least be a stronger basis from which to start. As it is, our zoning code would allows our city to be suburbanized. Yes, a developer doesn’t necessarily want to disclose their plans to early for fear of losing prospective tenants but we’ve got to all be on the same page in terms of vision.
The last time any vision was set was back in 1996 and revised in 1998. It was a collaborative effort of multiple aldermen, residents and neighborhood groups. It was a good start but through redistricting it all changed.
I agree that politicians look to short term solutions rather than the longer view and agree that contested races and some sort of other measures (term limits, non-partisan races, etc…) needs to be implimented. I think such a charter revision may be on my plate for the future.
But your solution seems to be one of saying that because nobody ran in 2005 to challenge Florida so the people that happen to live adjacent to the proposed McDonald’s will just have to suck it up until 2009 when it will be too late. Sorry, that is unacceptable.
I personally believe this McDonald’s on this side of the street willl not lead to more and better investment for this section of Grand but will at the best create a stagnant situation in the commercial section and a downward trend for the nearby residential area. That, my friend, is just cause for a recall of the elected official going out of her way to support it. – SLP]
It will be interesting to see whether the current crop of aldermen circle the wagons in J-Flo’s defense.
Toppers said, “It will be interesting to see whether the current crop of aldermen circle the wagons in J-Flo’s defense.”
I wonder if more of them will start to hear everyone complaining about aldermanic courtesy as part of the problem and start thinking of the big picture more than they think if the big campaign donors.
http://www.kdhx.org:6540/content/talkshows/thewire_2006-05-01.pls
Above is Jim, below is the cobblestone debacle which is Florida’s fault.
http://www.pubdef.net/2005/11/florida-busted-on-you-paid-for-it.html
Jim also sent a letter which I believe Steve already posted on his site.
Oh, you mean cobblestones in terms of traffic calming efforts. I remember that now. That was one of those Elliot Davis hatchet jobs where he corners an elected official and baits them with embarassing questions.
Without having any direct knowledge about the issue, I suspect Alderman Florida was working with a group of concerned residents to do something to slow traffic in the neighborhood. The same cobblestones are in the Shaw neighborhood, and there doesn’t seem to be a problem.
As far as the KDHX interview, isn’t that where President Shrewsbury called the McDonald’s plan “controversial”? That’s not the same thing as saying he opposes it.
I wrote Ald. Shrewsbury concerning this. His reply is as follows:
Thank you very much for your letter concerning the McDonald’s. Because of the overwhelming neighborhood opposition, I agree with you that a McDonald’s should not be built at that location.
This issue, however, will not be presented to the Board of Aldermen. It is a zoning matter and there will be no legislative action taken concerning this issue.
Thank you for contacting me concerning this matter. I am sorry I can not be of more assistance to you. If you have any questions or if I can ever assist you in any way in the future, do not hesitate to contact me.
What about the effort to amend the redevelopment plan to allow a drive through? Doesn’t that have to be approved by the Board of Aldermen?
[REPLY – Yes, but Shrewsbury’s letter was written prior to BB39 being introduced. – SLP]
Could part of the problem with the political working in the 15th ward stem from the fact that there are 2 Democratic organizations in the ward? I’m not sure if having 2 helps or hurts the situation.
Ald. Florida has pretty much rested on the fact that she fought to save the SSN Bank building from being demolished for a Walgreens. I am thrilled that she did this and her accomplishment is certainly appreciated.
The fact remains that McDonald’s will not help stabilize or better the area in any way. She has chosen to focus on the senior housing development component and has downplayed the McDonald’s relocation.
Being that I live in the area and see a few for rent signs on most streets, I fail to see the need for the senior housing. Oh wait, I get it! There is government money available for that!
Ald. Florida has misled residents and the GPNA concerning this project. That in itself is unethical. The fact that she refuses to look into other options and engage residents is cause for the recall.
She only proposed a better site plan after the appeal was filed over zoning. Of course, she also then went behind everyones backs and started the process to change the development ordinance so that HER McDonald’s would be allowed.
If anyone would like to read the email exchange that I’ve had with her, email me and I’ll forward them to you.
There was a comment made by somebody on KDHX about aldermanic courtesy being involved with the McDonald’s project. Anybody remember what it was?
Since no poster has brought it up yet, what will the folks spearheading this recall do if they dont get the necessary votes needed? If she is recalled then who would you put up to take her place?
Ald Florida is exhibiting similar bad habits that Ald Bauer had been before we recalled him. I was appalled by Bauer’s utter contempt for his constiuents and his lack of understanding at why we needed him recalled. However, that isnt stopping him from running again next year.
Recall’s can be a wonderful tool for a ward if all of the residents, ward organizations, and neighborhood assoc are in agreeance- otherwise you will have a nasty fractured ward that some new person gets to inherit.
Just my 2 cents from the 24th ward
[REPLY Great points and questions. I know that someone needs to not only bring the 15th Ward together but the entire city on development issues. The Board of Alderman are certainly not doing it. The Mayor’s office isn’t doing it. The planning staff is not doing it. This is a huge void. – SLP]
Well, Josh, things could get real interesting.
Given that J-Flo was the “progressive” candidate at the time, running without the endorsement of the “regular” 15th ward democrats, later forming her own “rump” organization, maybe we’ll soon see a third, “New Progressives” demo-group established, to accomodate the “reform the reformer” types.
Here’s a question…who would the likely suspects be to join that third wave of democratic ward organizations? From their number might you see Jenny’s challenger?
And would the old school democrats (of the Marge Vining/Gerri Osborne’s stripe) run their own candidate?
Talk about your culture clash!
Why don’t you start collecting signatures to recall Bush, Cheney, and your mama too!!!!
I want Marge Vining back!!! She was the one who fought harder than anyone — including “J-Flo” (I like that) — to save the South Side National Bank for which J-Flo seems to hang her undersized political hat for her oversized head (I hope it doesn’t mess up her hair).
As both a member of the recall ‘young punks’ crew, and a resident of the 15th ward, I think I can add a few items to this discussion.
First, the Gravois Park Neighborhood is the neighborhood which will be most affected by this development, and they ADAMANTLY oppose it. They have been active in seeking out Florida, but she has been resistent (putting it mildly) to face the crowd. Why? Because not all of Gravois Park falls in her ward, in fact a small portion does, but just enough of it that the McDonalds is in her ward. Alderman Schmid, whose ward contains most of the GPA, is opposed to it. That would make sense, he seems to be listening to his constituents. Unlike Florida.
I wasn’t living in the ward when Florida ran. I moved in after, and I love my neighborhood. I want to see it grow and prosper, and moving a McDonalds is not a positive for the neighborhood. We have an opportunity to seek new and positive development for an up and coming area of the city. The SSNB and the Melba are smart rehab projects that combine residential with a dense retail sector, and Florida, Pyramid and McDonalds want to plunk down a site plan that involves three curb cuts into an up and coming neighborhood? That would kill any forth coming development that could happen in the area.
Drive Thru restaurants are detrimental to the urban neighborhood. We want something that fits in the urban context, and adds to the potential of the neighborhood. Florida refuses to listen to the voices of those who live in her ward, and just outside it. If she did, there would be no reason for a recall.
I actually view the recall as a barganing chip. We get the necessary signatures to start the process, and request a meeting. If she (again) refuses to meet with us, we start the process. If she would like to sit down and work with the residents (the people who can vote her in and out of office), then we don’t have to recall her. But if she’s unwilling to do that, we’ll work to put somebody who has a better vision for the city, and an open ear in office.
i’ll sign if Steve runs to fill her place!
man, you’ve obviously got some ambition & the ability to stir up shit.. you want all our attention, why dont you do something good with it instead of complaining all the time.
i’ll vote for you 🙂
What I’ve gotten out of this thread is the following:
1. Aldermanic elections should be more often than 4 years (maybe 2 years?)
2. Development should be taken out of the political process (HUDZ)
3. Aldermen should have less of a stranglehold over their ward
Did I miss anything? Seems like we would need to amend the city charter to make these types of changes.
Piggybacking on what Sam said, is it a coincidence that southsidetower.net doesn’t list a single fast food restaurant among the neighborhood offerings, though they’re closer to the building than any of the ones mentioned?
Good point Julia!!!!!
Are you reading this Jennifer? Why don’t you ask The Lawrence Group what they think of new fast-food drive-thrus so close by?
Travis said:
…
2. Development should be taken out of the political process (HUDZ)
…
The problem with the proposed project (I try not to call it a “development”) is that the planning took place outside the political process. The political process is about transparency. In my opinion we need more of this, not less.
Through the political process, citizens and their representatives passed a development plan for the South Grand corridor. Jennifer Florida, Pyramid, and McDonalds are trying to circumvent the public decisions that were made.
Aldermanic courtesy also destroys the political process.
In my opinion, we need more discussion, more openness, a more forward-thinking representative. Removing “development” from the political sphere would allow more back-room decisions to be made.
Make sure you are getting what you really want
Two Points:
1) Drive the stretch of Jefferson Avenue between Gravois and I 44. Take a good look.
I have been a community and political activist for over 20 years in this city. I was president of an organization when a proposed Taco Bell and McDonalds was put on the table. At that time there was a law office, a small grocery store…in the area. Opposition insisted on better than a Taco Bell and McDonalds. We wanted that also. It just wasn’t in the cards. We thought the investment, though not the most desirable, would spur more. They built them. It wasn’t enough and the neighborhood continued to decline. The Post Mortem– those who fought so hard to stop it, later saw them as the best thing that ever happened.
Moral to the story– fight the project all you want but, better yet spend your energy trying to produce a better alternative. See what you can do.
If I was your alderman, I would leave the lot vacant and do the rest of the project around it so you can all see for many years to come that maybe you were actually the “elitist.”
2) Wake Up! Politics have changed.
Who in their right mind would want to step up to the plate and be an alderman? 34K a year, unlimited abuse from someone with a voice or a blog. More of our elected official run unopposed than ever before! No one wants the job.
I’m sure that so many of you so free with the criticism will step up into a leadership role and run against Craig in his next election.
I honor your right to opposition. Your personal attacks are gutless. I hope you don’t find out too late that what you had was better than what you might get in both development and an alderman in the future.
It is one thing to sit in your La-z-boy and be critical, it’s another to captain the ship.
Recalling Florida? Oh sure it is easy to to say….but I voted FOR her in the election….Who are you to say that I voted wrong? Who are you to say that she is not protecting my interests in MY community? She ran unopposed, yet now there is a recall….easy to do, so who is going to fill the position? who is going to run? What makes you think the next person will be any better?
Instead of writing endlessly on this website, why don’t you give the hotline a call and get involved.
Get off the computer, and get on the phone.
Doug:
Instead of telling US to stop writing endlessly, why don’t you announce your candacy so we really have something to decide.
She ran unopposed for a reason, duh!!!!!!!!!
I have to agree with Susan. A recall is not enough, although warranted. Where were the candidates in 2003? Who is running in 2007?
[REPLY – FYI: The 15th Ward had elections in 2001 and 2005. It is the even numbered wards that had elections in 2003 and again next year in 2007. The next election for the 15th Ward would not be until March of 2009.
I think part of the factor why you did not see any challengers to Florida in 2005 was the amount of money she raised prior to the election. As I reported earlier her reports from 2004 do not balance so only a true audit would determine how much she had raised. On the surface it appears her reports were padded to make it look like they had more money than they did. – SLP]
Everyone has the answers here! Steve, I love the way you indicate that “I don’t represent anyone’s views except my own”. Recheck that. Good or bad, you provide legitimacy to the urbanist point of view. You have a strong following AND the luxury of not being accountabile to your “constituents”. I hope you run again indeed! Or even better, get a real planning job with St. Louis or some other government. Then you can “legitimately” criticize civil servants.
Recall your mama too!
Steve:
While reading through this blog, I could see both sides and further see why some are upset. I think recall is overkill, but to each your own. I respect the energy you are willing to direct to this.
After your last remark about “her finances being Padded.” I now realize that you are a wingnut. You had better watchout, being hateful and finding conspiracies in everything can become a way of life.
[REPLY – My energy is not directed toward the recall, others are taking care of that. I remain focused on the urban planning issues involved in the McDonald’s issue. For example, today while at city hall I stopped by the zoning department to see if they had received a new site plan (they had not).
Yes, to recall or not to recall is up to the folks in that area. Frankly, I would have liked to have seen more action around St. Aloysius but that didn’t materialize.
I’ve actually had both sides upset with me. How you ask? Simple, I’ve argued that if the McDonald’s is going to happen it should be urban in design. That concession on my part upset the Gravois Park residents. I can see why, they don’t wnat a drive-thru regardless of the streetscape design.
I’ve shared my views and offered alternative solutions. I’ve suggested ways to build the McDonald’s on the current site and offered support for the senior housing project on the old Sears site. I’ve shown examples of better designed drive-thru facilities both with examples from Chicago and through highly detailed guidelines from the City of Toronto.
As for conspiracies that is not what I am saying. I have my beliefs about why things are done a certain way. Florida’s reports are wrong for only two reasons — an honest mistake or a dishonest mistake. If you want to give her the benefit of the doubt that is certainly your right. Me suggesting the alternative does not make me a conspriacy theorist, just a pessimist.
Is the recall overkill? I guess that is a matter of personal perspective and I’ve certainly allowed everyone to have their say on the matter here. I can imagine the closer you live to the prospective drive-thru the more it influences your decision? I’ve yet to met a person that lives in the 2-3 blocks adjacent to the site in favor of the proposal. – SLP]
Some of these most recent posts are quite ludicrous. Attacking Steve for something he isn’t doing. It’s members of the Gravois Park Association (neighborhood closest to the development), residents of the 15th ward, and members of the StLUP group that are involved in this effort to recall Florida. As a member of StLUP, I’ve asked others for their help with this issue. If Steve wants to help, I would welcome it. But I don’t think putting a McDonalds on this site is good development, period…regardless of the design.
If Florida were willing to listen to her constituents, we wouldn’t be even considering a recall. But she has ignored many requests for her time on this topic, and then appears surprised when we get upset that we’re being ignored.
I’d rather have a vacant lot there than a Drive Thru restaurant. Because the vacant lot at least has a potential to be something better, when a Drive Thru restaurant is what it is. An anti-urban development in a neighborhood that has the chance to become something pretty great.
Florida has had many chances to prove that she is willing to serve her ward, instead of herself…and she has failed. If that meets your criteria for an alderman, than I invite you to move to the 15th ward and combat our efforts for the recall. But I plan on walking up to her, showing her the signatures, and asking if she’d like to work things out. If she does, we don’t have to file the papers, but I already know she won’t, so the next step will be taken.
Executive Order No. 2001
I President George Walker Bush hereby designate Alderwoman Jennifer “Fabulous” Florida as an enemy combadant under the USA PATRIOT Act HR 3162, and my absolute authority intrinsically present in my executive order, Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism.
Jennifer Florida is a domestic terrorist, evident in her actions which are terrorizing the domestic homefront of the 15th ward.
Moreover she shall be detained in Gitmo, and forced to read Machiavelli’s The Price over and over again.
Any attempt to negotiate with domestic terrorists such as Florida, shall be viewed as treason.
Do not negioate with domestic terrorists.
^OMFG!
That they do happen to list a sex shop, and a seedy looking one at that, on their listing of neighborhood offerings, but ignore fast food, I think we can chalk it up to coincidence.
As long as we’re calling to recall elected officials of whom we are not constituents, perhaps I ought to warm up the recall petitions for Bill Frist. Who’s with me?
I think it is fortunate for Steve Patterson that this is a Blog. It is human nature to give more credibility to items that are read than those heard by word of mouth. For this reason, Steve is able to present himself as a Journalist in order to gain credibility all the while using this sight for his own personal gain. It is really kind of clever because Steve can write absolutely anything he wants and people will read it and think because of the lay-out it is true. Talk about self-serving.. tell me Steve.. are you planning on moving to the 15th ward anytime soon? I heard forces outside of the Ward may render it alderman-less pretty soon.. maybe if you could run opposed the people would be idiotic enough to elect you.
[REPLY – Well, this didn’t take long. Well, “James” last name unknown. I do not hide behind an anonymous blog or even Business Journal editorial the way many people do. I don’t even see you willing to post your full name.
You want word of mouth over written word? Fine, I would be more than happy to ask the League of Women voters (or an impartial person) to moderate a public debate.
I have no intentions of moving to the 15th ward. Besides, one must reside in a ward for a year before being able to seek office in that ward. – SLP]
This is getting very heated. Mudslinging and all, this is looking like a presidential election.
Starting a recall petition is easy, just as it is easy to sit back and type up some contriversial dribble on a blog site. It’s quite another to go door to door and get signatures and then get those same people to the voting booths. Instead of focusing on so many of the good things that have happened in our area in the past few years, people choose to concentrate on one instance, and because it isn’t going their way want to cry Boo
Hoo.
Well all I can say is Boo Hoo to the recall. I for one like what Ald. Florida has generated for our area, the 15th Ward. MY area. The McDonalds deal might not be the best, but it is only a minor blip on the screen. We are lucky that our area is stabalized and improving. Do you think that just happened by itself? You think it was just the developers? Just the homeowners? Think again. It has been a coordination of efforts-some by plan, some by sheer luck. At least we have an Ald. that is out there. Some wards don’t even know or see their Alderpersons.
And a personal note to Steve: You post some interesting thoughts on here. In that, you and I have the same thing in common, and that is that I hope we get people to think. I have found that many people, on a whole variety of issues, are afraid to think and even more so afraid to take action. I regret that some people deem it necessary to attack on a personal level and I’m sure I will get some flak for posting as well, but ca la vi (forgive my spelling).
You have to hand it to this controversy though – at least it has stirred up passions and communications. And all the postings, good and bad, are good in that people are becoming involved. Now I would like to see that involvement stretch out beyond a keyboard.
[REPLY – Thanks for sharing your views. I would like to say that my writing is neither easy nor dribble but I can see where someone else might think that if they are not a constant reader. Check back through the archives to see the depth of my writing and tell me if you still think so.
And I agree, no need for mudslinging, the facts are good enough.
I know the door to door process quite well as I have been a candidate myself. So, unlike most of you out there, I have put my money where my mouth is and sought elective office. You are right, it is not easy. I did not win my first time out but I think in 2009 I will be successful.
To the people in the blocks near the McDonald’s I don’t think the issue is so insignificant. Sure, to someone at Hartford & Gustine it is not a big deal but issues are relative to proximity. I don’t see any value in belittling the feelings of fellow citizens who are seeking through valid means a resolution to something they see as a threat to their neighborhood and home values.
The city faces important development issues in every neighborhood and every ward. I’d like to think we can be a bit more mature than calling someone babies for being upset about having an unwanted drive-thru placed adjacent to their homes. – SLP]
Dear Steve,
I am a Journalism student at the University of Missouri-Columbia. I heard about your blog through various sources and I decided to check it out.
Recently, in one of my Journalism classes we discussed the dangers of blogging to the field of Convergence Journalism. The Convergence field of Journalism is a newly recognized (it is the first year this sequence has been offered at MIZZOU) sequence that focuses mostly on Online Publishing and Online Periodicals (CBSNews.com, etc). The problem of blogging is that in creating a blog and deeming it a title so decidedly journalistically inclined as the “Urban Review” you are lending a false credibility to yourself and, in essence, misleading those who may misinterpret your articles as truth instead of simply your opinion. I am sure that you think that you are very unbiased but the truth is that as a Journalism student I am horrified at what blogs like yours will mean for the future of Convergence Journalism. I can see that you have been praised by several in my future chosen field, but I am simply horrified and insulted by your irresponsible use of a blog for your own ulterior motives.
[REPLY Thank you for your commentary but I would have hoped that a journalism student would have done her homework before drawing a conclusion. Sadly, I think that is gone from journalism.
I have never made any claims of being a journalist. From the right hand column under the heading What this site is about I state, “This site is an opportunity for me to share my thoughts on the St. Louis Region from an urban perspective. For the most part I focus on negative aspects – those areas where I believe we could & should do better with our resources.” Share my thoughts! Even the subheading makes it clear this site is a critique.
My motives, not so ulterior, are to create a more urban St. Louis. I am completely & consistently biased toward urbanism.
Next… – SLP]
Although off the topic of the recall, I would like to respond to Megan.
I don’t agree with everything on this site. The fact remains that any discussion about these issues is better than waiting for the Post-Dispatch or the Journals to do an article about an issue that has already been started.
If this site can spur real interaction among residents then it’s been a success!
Why not? It seems there sure are a whole lot of people who are not 15th ward residents who would certainly like to have voting privileges, albeit by proxy. Why not cut out the middleman and move there?
Will the real residents of the 15th ward please stand up? Out of 55 posts above, only one person appears to have made themselves known as a resident. Mainly, I’m curious who is actually eligible and willing to run for Florida’s seat once she’s recalled. Anyone? Beuller?
I don’t care one way or another whether she’s recalled. But, I do think it’s extremely irresponsible and shortsighted for people to outside her ward to go cheerleading when they certainly don’t appear to be suggesting any alternatives, and they cannot act as the alternatives themselves.
Oakland,
I think that is pretty shortsighted myself. I’ve actually had conversations with two different people who said that they would run if Florida is recalled. They also did not want to be included in the recall process because of that, and asked not to be named. So, I guess you probably won’t believe me because I can’t name them? Oh well.
And why are people so upset by those outside the ward getting involved. This is a 15th Ward issue, but as a resident of the 15th ward, I think that this goes beyond the 15th ward. I want more involvement city wide from everyone. It’s the only way we’ll ever get beyond this crap that is aldemanic courtesy.
We’re finally seeing the revival of the City Of St. Louis. I don’t want to see the city ruined for future generations because of decisions like putting a drive thru restaurant when smart urban infill can be had instead.
Walking up to the Alderman and issuing an ultimatum of caving in to the signers of the petition or filing said petition? That is what you are in fact doing, right Sam? Issuing an ultimatum? a threat?
Well I hope she does turn you down. Go file the petition (assuming you can find enough certified voters to do so), and then I will see you at the polls when I vote FOR her again.
The majority will win.
RE: Convergent Journalism
The hubris comments of a journalism student are too ripe not to respond.
Dearest Meagan, attitudes like yours, particularly believing that journalist are “truthful” reporters, is why this blogging medium is exploding with success. The “world-of-oz” media, constantly filtering news, has always been biased. Now just about everyone, except “journalists”, recognize this which explains why traditional forms of media are dying quickly.
“Convergent journalism”… even the title is misleading but it is hilarious !
Maurice,
You think 641 is a majority? If she feels threatened by the recall attempts, she should. I’m sorry, but what else is she supposed to think…there’s an awful lot of people out there who are very unhappy with her. I haven’t spoken to anyone in the neighborhood that has thought the McDonalds issue is good for the neighborhood, yet she pushes on. I’d like to see her listen to reason and switch position, because that position appears to be the overall feeling of her residents.
Is that too much to ask of a politician? That they represent their constituents?
Every elected representative is accountable for every decision they make. If they make 5 good and one bad, then they are accountable for the one bad, because it affects so many people. Giving her a mulligan on the McDonalds issue is unfair to the neighborhood, and the city. You want to say it’s okay for her do mess up once in a while? Fine, as long as she’s willing to admit the mistake and correct it. This mistake is STILL correctable.
Pull BB39 from the table, force Pyramid to live up to their word by building something intelligent on that site, or have them sell it to somebody who will. Let McDonalds figure their problems out on their own. If Florida does that, I won’t support the recall attempt.
I am intrigued by the comment posted regarding the irresponsiblity of blogs. Having taught communication now for 14 years I’m wondering what they are teaching at ol’ Mizzou. In no way are blogs a threat to traditional journalism in the manner the post by Megan argues. The Reagan era ending of the fairness doctrine and the Telecommunication act of 1996 are the real threats to good, public service oriented journalism. Edward R. Murrow forsaw the downfall of traditional public service oriented journalism as the profit motive took over broadcasting corporations. I’m not worried about convergence as much as conglomoration.
Steve and I know each other from back in the day at The University of Oklahoma. I received my Ph.D. in Communication while Steve received his degree in Design. I’ve followed Steve’s blog for awhile now, jumping into discussions here and there, even though I don’t live in St. Louis. What these blogs remind me of are sort of a modern day Lincoln-Douglas debate. The Lincoln-Douglas debates would go on for hours and hours, and, amazingly enough, people listened. That’s what blogs seem like to me. Long, extended debates. The question for us as participants in the debate is to decide the credibility of those involved, not to attack the forum. The forum, ie. blogs present a wonderful opportunity to express one’s viewpoint.
The credibility question looms large not just for blogs but for traditional journalism as well. How are Katie Couric, Bill O’Reily and Sean Hanity credible sources? I know Steve to be a credible source because I’m a friend. How do those who don’t know him make that judgement? Well, as Quintillian (old dead white guy Roman Rhetorician) said, credibility is judged as “a good man speaking well” Well, Steve may have a few typos in his blogs but his posts provide good sound logical arguments supporting his positions. I’ll take his well argued positions over Fox news any day of the week.
Brad raises some good points in regards to journalism. But what I think Megan was pointing out was that the design and layout and tone of reporting is what gives it credibility (or to her, miscredibility). Is it any different from Fox or NBC news? Well, I guess the only answer to that is that one would hope not to believe everything they read or hear without at least referencing one other source for validation.
As for Sam’s comment regarding one out of 5 mistakes….Sam, you started out well. But 641 is a majority when no one votes. Let me change that…when very few vote. But linking your posting to one earlier regarding running for office: If 4 good judgements are acceptable but 1 is bad…why would people want to run for office if that bad mistake gets them embroiled in a recall petition?
Politicians are human, just like you and I. I would rather have 1 politician that offers 4 good solutions and live with the 1 bad one than a politician that offers 5 bad ones, ignores everyone but what the current poll numbers say, and then forces taxes on you to support those bad decisions (Bush-are you listening?).
Now I’m all for recall if the issues are there (Sunset Hills for one), but I would like to ask of everyone signing that petition: Have you contacted your official (J-Flo or another, Mayor, etc.,) to express your support of ANY of the number of GOOD projects going on? I bet for 99%, the majority is no…taking the opinion that’s their job. And maybe it is…but how can you blame a politician for making the wheels turn when all they hear is from a minority on a bad issue and even fewer still on a good issue. The majority sit back, say nothing, and complain, complain, complain.
You all really need to focus on something else. One, Patterson is crazy. Why didn’t he put out the recall for Ald. Vollmer over the St. Al’s development on the Hill? Why isn’t he taking on the Mayor? Is he going to take on the whole BOA? He’s a wanna be. He lost to Dorothy Kirner and he is spreading his discontent, bitter seed. If he were a leader in the Community he wouldn’t be doing this. It’s malcontent not leadership or the resolution to his problem. He doesn’t even live in the neighborhood.
And who is the real problem? Schmid couldn’t get anything done. Jennifer inherited the mess on Grand Ave.
Schmid created the problem. Ald. Florida has taken the initiative and has made a marked improvement in the Grand and Gravois area.
You can’t let a few zealots control what elected officials are doing. Most of the electeds ideas are good. They will never please us 100% but I think she is doing 100% better than Schmid ever could. He can’tr make a decision or complete a project.
Focus on Schmid and shut Patterson up!!!
[REPLY – How does one reply to such a well reasoned argument? Your point is I’m crazy & bitter and Craig Schmid does nothing. Oh yes, at least Florida gets something done.
Well, I’m not crazy. Hmmm, maybe just a bit for trying to get St. Louis to get out of its inferiority complex and attempt to be an urban city once again.
I would have gladly supported a recall against Vollmer over the St. Als issue. Clearly, the folks in that area were not as upset over the issue as people are over the McDonald’s. Also, Vollmer is up for reelection in less than a year which might have something to do with it.
I just get a kick out of the “he doens’t live in the neighborhood part.” Are we as citizens of the City of St. Louis only supposed to voice concerns over issues within our neighoborhood and/or ward boundaries? How small minded, no wonder our city is not coming back as strong as it should. We continue to pigeon hole ourselves into 79 neighborhood boundaries and 28 ward boundaries.
Jennifer Florida got Keystone in 2002, about two years after the first houses were started. The legislation enabeling the Keystone project was passed in 1998 and the Sears was razed in 1999. So, if we are going to be fair, Craig and two other adjacent aldermen got the project started only for it to switch to Florida. She has had it longer than Craig did and seems to have allowed her rich buddies at Pyramid to let it all sit idle.
If you are going to call me names at least make attempts to present a sound argument and do some fact checking first. – SLP]
[REPLY #2 – I looked up the email address from this comment and it is a valid email address for Ald. Stephen Gregali. I forwarded the comment to him asking if it was indeed from him or authored by someone else. He quickly replied:
He was also appreciative that I asked to verify this information rather than assuming it was true. Folks, if you are not big enough to actually use your real name and real email/web address that is fine but do not try to implicate someone else in the process. – SLP]
I stop reading for one day and look what happens….
I still havent read yet if anyone had any plans beyond the recall. I “think” that some of the recall folks were commenting on friday but not sure if theyre still reading.
Does anyone have a plan for what to do if you cant get the signatures? If you do get the signatures then who would either the neighborhood assoc or the Dem Party get to run?
I may be in the monority here but I’m more than willing to run for alderman in a few years or even state rep. Yes they are thankless but it sure seems that there isnt a crop of younger politico’s gearing up to take over for the older politicians.
Alot of it also depends on waiting your turn and striking when its right. I have a great alderman so there’s no need for me to run next year but if he doesnt run in the following cycle then I would. You can piss and moan all ya want but change only happens when you become involved.
If you do run steve and you pull aldermanic courtesy in my ward your goin down buddy!! (just kidding)
Maurice,
You make valid points about the number of those voting. I agree that there are many that don’t involve themselves in the most important part of a citizens job, which is showing up on election day.
If Florida’s one bad decision was the bricks on Gustine, I wouldn’t worry about it. If her bad decision was a great number of other things she could do wrong in the future, it might not be a problem. But the problem is that the mistake she’s made is something big enough to warrant a recall. This type of development, which she’s helped through by submitting the variance, isn’t good for any urban neighborhood.
If she is responsible for bring Lawrence to the table to do the SSNB and the Melba, that is great. But this whole McDonalds thing stinks to high heaven, and if she won’t fix it, she leaves it up to the citizens to do so. That’s just my opinion.
And for the record, I have sent her emails regarding the SSNB and Melba projects. I guess I’m one of the few though. 😉
I am a resident of the 25th ward and I support Jennifer Florida wholeheartedly. We’re talking about a McDonalds here. They want to close one, and open another one across the street. The lot where the McDonalds currently sits will become a senior center. What is the problem here?
(I note in passing that the McDonalds at Grand & Chippewa is the worst one in the city.)
If you don’t live in the 25th ward, then it’s none of your business. Bitch at your OWN alderman.
[REPLY – Your point would go over better if you actually knew which ward you lived in. Is is the 25th (where I in fact live) or is the 15th where Jennifer Florida is alderwoman.
And only those things happening with our ward are our business? How narrow a view… – SLP]
Did I mis read? I thought Easy said they live in the 25th ward and support the alderman of the 15th ward….and they are saying that if you aren’t in the 15th ward then it is none of your buisness.
It might be a narrow view. But it isn’t a wrong view. There are no wrong views.
They have a point and they should be able to express it.
I am a resident of the 25th ward and it is my business what happens in the 15th ward!
I drive through and shop in many different wards. For goodness sakes, it’s the same darn city. Good planning and development is the responsibility of all residents. You have to think outside of these arbitrary, artificial, ward boundaries.
Well I would agree with Travis and all, however, isolationist have existed since the dawn of politics. I don’t think its going to change anytime soon. Yes, there are ways to encourage people to get involved, but you can’t make a horse drink you know?????
Thats my 2 cents for the day
What happened? the list is dead. did I hear the rumor that this board has a virus?
It seemed to be going well, and then……
[REPLY – Most posts have their time in the spotlight and this one lasted long than most. It also received the most comment of the more than 600 posts I’ve done.
No virus here. I personally run a Mac and the server runs Linux, both largely virus free. However, an attept was made to shut down my site by jambing the server. – SLP]
You should look into other blogging platforms, wordpress is getting slower and slower these days, I really like the site tho so its worth the wait!!